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KurtS

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Some special Indian Head Cents
October 22, 2008, 02:04:01 PM
Seeing how collectors here are interested in Indian Head Cents, I thought I would post some pics of a few notable varieties.
A few of these coins are mine, and others are as credited to their owners.

Corresponding to the 1930 Australian penny, rarest and most valuable US cents ever was minted in 1888.
This is the 1888/7 overdate, one of 23 known in existence. This particular copy would clear $120K if sold today.
While it's very rare, I'm sure there are still undiscovered copies somewhere. I'm looking.  :D




1882 There is a pretty rare and valuable coin with misplaced digit punches in the neck:



1882 This is another collector coin which is distinguished by the broken "2" in the date punch:



1887 There is a very dramatic DDO that's worth a premium. Check for doubling in AMERICA. It should match this:



1894 The 1894 Snow-1 is one of the more dramatic repunchings of the date:



1897 A common date otherwise, but there's a fun variety with a lot of collector interest (and added value).
This is one you can almost spot without a loupe. Look for the digit punched in the neck:




 


latman

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Re: Some special Indian Head Cents
October 22, 2008, 05:46:50 PM
I will be on the look out, but I wont be holding my breath. Hard to find these little Indians where I live.

When is the coin fair you are going to Kurt? Need to organise myself and send you some money.

 


KurtS

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Re: Some special Indian Head Cents
October 22, 2008, 06:14:52 PM
Sean, the next show is Nov. 13-16; I should be there at least 2 days. There should be a good selection of IHCs, and I bet I can find you some bargains--and perhaps a variety or two (unattributed).  :D  Let me know what sort of dates/grades you would like to get, and we'll go from there.

 


latman

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Re: Some special Indian Head Cents
October 22, 2008, 06:16:49 PM
Thanks Kurt. Will get an email to you in the next couple of days.

 


Offline S.George

Re: Some special Indian Head Cents
October 22, 2008, 09:28:08 PM
 :D

Sir KurtS:
Thanks for your wonderful scan of Over Date Red Indian  Cent.   It is not even listed in my  Coin Catalogue.
Your scans are very clear and I see the over date and other differences.  (I have to learn a lot on scaning)
Thanks for the informative message which is very useful to persons like me, living far far away.
George

It is by giving others, we actually receive from G
 


Offline Triggersmob

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Re: Some special Indian Head Cents
October 22, 2008, 10:12:50 PM
Thanks for the info, Kurt.

Great pics too.

I only have a 1899 and 1907 Indian head.
Is there anything I should check these for?

Steve
(From Western Australia)

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KurtS

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Re: Some special Indian Head Cents
October 23, 2008, 05:09:19 AM
Sir George, thank you!  :D I'm always improving my photographic methods; macro is one of my specialties. I just wish that 1888/7 were mine.

Quote
I only have a 1899 and 1907 Indian head.
Is there anything I should check these for?

Yes! 1907 is a very good year for repunched date varieties. ;D Here are just two of 48 different varieties for that year:

Look at the extra digits stamped inside the 90 of the date:


Another repunching of the 9:


For 1899, there are 20 different varieties, mostly involving repunched dates. If you post photos of the date area, I'll take a look.
I hope I get a few collectors interested in the hunt for varieties. Who knows...there may be an unknown 1888/7 outside the USA?  ;D

 


Offline Triggersmob

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Re: Some special Indian Head Cents
October 23, 2008, 11:21:22 AM
I'm just about to go to work,
So I'll upload those pics tonight or on the weekend.
Thanks Kurt.


Steve
(From Western Australia)

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See my gallery here, now with over 15,000 images...
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KurtS

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Re: Some special Indian Head Cents
October 23, 2008, 11:59:28 AM
Steve,
Great--look forward to those pics, you never know...  :)

 


Offline Triggersmob

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Re: Some special Indian Head Cents
October 23, 2008, 10:20:43 PM
OK, here they are...

Is that something under the 7?









I don't have a macro lens, so I hope these are good enough.

Thanks, Kurt.

Steve
(From Western Australia)

OFEC count 239
See my gallery here, now with over 15,000 images...
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KurtS

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Re: Some special Indian Head Cents
October 24, 2008, 08:38:42 AM
Steve, those two IHCs are nice! The color appears original with no overt evidence of cleaning.
Firstly, there's something very dramatic about your 1907--that's the huge die crack crossing the reverse.   :o

This isn't the normal place for reverse cracks to appear, which typically begin at an edge, then cross into either the shield or follow the wreath. These are typical fracture points during later die life, which don't appear on this coin. How the crack crosses the strongest die areas suggests a special situation--such as a poorly prepared die with internal stresses. As such, this particular die pair may have had a short run; it wouldn't be long before it split in two pieces. While die cracks aren't a "variety" for IHC collectors here, I think this one is especially dramatic and would warrant collector interest.  ;D

Thanks for showing the closeups on the dates. There are a lot of repunched dates for both years, which occur when the machinist first made a positioning mistake, then repositioned the gang press that impressed the date in each individual die. I believe these second impressions were made, and then the die fields were polished down to reduce visibility. This may account for most RPDs being found within protected areas such as interiors of numerals--just a little explanation of what happened.

On both coins, there's a bit of dirt in the digits, which obscures things--but this shouldn't be cleaned. If you're interested further, take a loupe and look closely inside the digits for any raised lines or shapes that could be underlying digits. It will look like a repeated curve with an offset from the main digit, such as the dramatic example below. When these RPDs are more severe, they actually affect the shape of the primary digits, as seen here:



On your 1907, I pointed out a few areas of the date below where you might look for raised areas on the coin.
If you find any, this would be a "discovery coin", as no known varieties have that dramatic reverse die break.  ;D



 


Offline Triggersmob

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Re: Some special Indian Head Cents
October 24, 2008, 11:47:21 AM
That crack is pretty dramatic. I never noticed it before I posted the pics.
Under magnification, I can't see anything that looks strange about the numbers,
only that little lump above the 7. 
I'll see if I can get a better pic of the crack.

Steve
(From Western Australia)

OFEC count 239
See my gallery here, now with over 15,000 images...
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KurtS

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Re: Some special Indian Head Cents
October 24, 2008, 12:01:28 PM
Yes, the crack makes that a good find!  ;D
Ah--you wrote under the 7, which got me confused. Yes, I saw that bulge above, but I was unsure without more detail.  ???
If you can get a close shot, I'll might be able to discern whether it's circ damage or a repunched 7. Some of the 7 punches were damaged too.
Btw, I think your 1899 would grade around F12, and the 1907 as VF20.

 


Offline Triggersmob

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Re: Some special Indian Head Cents
October 24, 2008, 12:45:28 PM
Sorry to confuse you, I meant below, as in underlying.

Here is a close up of the die crack...



This is the best I can do with the date..



Thanks for the gradings too.

Steve
(From Western Australia)

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KurtS

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Re: Some special Indian Head Cents
October 24, 2008, 02:19:57 PM
Steve, great closeup of the crack--very nice! I just showed this to a few US error experts who were impressed too.
The thought is the die went through some kind of shock. I'm still guessing a die flaw contributed to the break. Uncommon-rare;D

That's a clearer picture of the 7 too, and it doesn't look to be circulation damage. I looked through my 1907 die guide, and I see one specific coin with that kind of 7. It could be a damaged digit punch, or your coin might be the same die of a variety that has doubling on the base of 19. I think I see some faint evidence of the RPD, as well as that unique 7. This would be called Snow-10 19/19 (s). (letter indicates direction of displacement). Congrats!

 


Offline Triggersmob

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Re: Some special Indian Head Cents
October 24, 2008, 02:39:14 PM
Thank you , Kurt.
I appreciate all the effort you have put into identifying this coin for me.

What would it mean in term of increased value, if any?

Steve
(From Western Australia)

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See my gallery here, now with over 15,000 images...
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KurtS

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Re: Some special Indian Head Cents
October 24, 2008, 04:19:49 PM
Glad I could help and perhaps get others interested in varieties. It's a very fun direction in collecting! 
According to Rick Snow's guide (he's the IHC expert), the Snow-10 is valued at 2-3X normal for the 1907.
Actual value varies a bit according to grade of coin and what's called the "die state"--age of die when coin was struck.
An ordinary 1907 is around $4 in VF20.  This is a good year to look through because the date is fairly cheap and there are many varieties.  ;D

 


Offline Triggersmob

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Re: Some special Indian Head Cents
October 24, 2008, 05:54:14 PM
Thanks again. Kurt

I'll update my spreadsheet with all that new info.

Steve
(From Western Australia)

OFEC count 239
See my gallery here, now with over 15,000 images...
http://www.coincommunity.org/gallery/index.php?cat=10048