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Offline Humpybong

Ancients in Germany may have come to an end
February 03, 2009, 11:58:44 AM
German numismatists ring the alarm bells

German cultural authorities have begun searching private homes and seizing
entire collections of antique coins, if provenance of only a few coins in
the collection is not documented. These invasions are being conducted under
the new German laws on importation of cultural property. Coins being
subjected to such scrutiny are not restricted to ancient coins presumed to
have been excavated - medieval and antique modern coins are also subject to
the same measures. In one case, a pensioner from the Thuringian Eisenberg
recently acquired four old coins on an Internet auction site. Shortly
afterwards his house was searched, ending with seizure of his entire
collection. Collectors are understandably alarmed, because very few coins in
their collections have provenances that will satisfy the new laws. When a
collection becomes suspect only a short time is being allowed to prove licit
origin before the collection is seized, and then even if the suspicion is
unfounded, it is very difficult to recover the collection.

Not only coins, but all "cultural objects" more than 100 years old are
subject to these new cultural laws, leading to fears that stamp collections,
collections of graphic arts and antique jewelry may also be targeted. The
list of "cultural objects" in the 1970 UNESCO Convention is very extensive,
including such common things as coins, postage stamps, photographs and
printed books.

The new laws on importation of cultural property became effective in
September 2008, after the German government finally gave in to demands that
importation of unprovenanced coins and other artifacts should be prevented,
because archaeologists allege that looting of archaeological sites is driven
by the collecting market. This allegation is unproven - no verifiable,
factual evidence has yet been presented to support it.

There is however significant evidence that looting would continue unabated
even if collecting could be prevented in Europe and other areas where
cultural property laws are respected. Meanwhile German coin collectors now
feel completely insecure, like criminals suspected of breaking the law.
According to Ulf Draeger - head of the Moritzburg Landesmünzkabinetts and
chairman of the German Society of Medallic Arts - the entry into force of
these new laws, despite their laudable intentions, has led to significant
collateral damage in only a short time. His conclusion: "If this situation
continues, then we can pack up."

For a summary in English see
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Unidroit-L/message/3348

Barry
Brisbane, Australia
Forum Administrator

"Experience enables you to recognise a mistake when you make it a again"
 


Offline Nighthawk

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Re: Ancients in Germany may have come to an end
February 03, 2009, 12:30:42 PM
Let 'em try that BS at my house!!!  >:(

NUMISMATIST
PHILATELIST
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ART LOVER
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COLLECTING COINS SINCE 1971
 


Offline AdamL

Re: Ancients in Germany may have come to an end
February 03, 2009, 01:41:15 PM
I heard about this earlier today. Pretty ridiculous. I bet our German members will have something to say about this.

-Adam
Knight Of The Coin Table #103
 


Offline Eringobraugh

Re: Ancients in Germany may have come to an end
February 03, 2009, 02:27:16 PM
Well,If that aint a bunch of horse crap!!!!.....Are they reimbursing those people,If not,then that is out and out theft...


"If you wish to be a success in the world, promise everything, deliver nothing."
Napoleon Bonaparte
 


Offline Eringobraugh

Re: Ancients in Germany may have come to an end
February 03, 2009, 02:36:54 PM

"If you wish to be a success in the world, promise everything, deliver nothing."
Napoleon Bonaparte
 


Offline Paint Your Wagon

Re: Ancients in Germany may have come to an end
February 03, 2009, 11:22:21 PM
I have read the original german text just now and it is based on an UNESCO article
It is about the IMPORT of somebody elses cultural heritage
There is no longer IMPORT possible in the EC unless from outside the EC
So all people buying falsified crap in China will be on the crap list
I guess this is the end of ebay in old Romans and old Greek from outside the EC ( US included )
Could this be another piece of protectionist crap to buy locally ?

I asked a german gold collector I know if he read the crap and what his comments are
Since it is stricktly german law I don't care much . It is not EC law

I wonder if Germany now is going to give back the entire temples they robbed under Hitler in Turkey and they
put in the Pergammon museum in east Berlin

german ref
http://www.metacrawler.com/clickserver/_iceUrlFlag=1?rawURL=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.bundesregierung.de%2Fnn_1264%2FContent%2FDE%2FPressemitteilungen%2FBPA%2F2008%2F09%2F2008-09-24-bkm-kulturgueterschutz.html&0=&1=0&4=67.63.50.255&5=212.239.146.135&9=0b859ffb54ad4d6d80e6886e8586c901&10=1&11=info.metac&13=search&14=239138&15=main-title&17=6&18=6&19=0&20=0&21=6&22=9%2FievPF5pzY%3D&40=J8g3PkuuKF8D6DPhboOEgg%3D%3D&_IceUrl=true



Where I am going I ain't certain
Where I am going I don't know
All I know is that I'am on my way
 


Offline Paint Your Wagon

Re: Ancients in Germany may have come to an end
February 04, 2009, 12:45:42 AM
I got an answer I will summarize
This is a lot of crap like the laws on tax on gold ( you have to pay tax on goldimports unless the coins are exempt and they are exempt if they are on a list and to get on the list they have to be at least 900 gold and less then 180% of the price of melt and legal tender or have been legal tender and made post 1800 ) Well Belgium forgot to put the 20 $ Liberty on the list so I had to pay

They will probably make a list of coins here too positive or exempt  ;D
The law starts at items worth more then 1000 euro and the German interpretation is "unique" I have not seen an article from any other euro country ( UNESCO should impact US too ? )

To me it looks like hunting people that can pay 1000 euro for a coroded bent and green coin
Hunt them and make them pay taxes and penalties instead of coins .

Where I am going I ain't certain
Where I am going I don't know
All I know is that I'am on my way
 


Offline TwoShadows

Re: Ancients in Germany may have come to an end
February 04, 2009, 09:24:08 AM
There are many strange things at play right now in the world and, in the end, it will not be to benefit the citizens of any country. Seems like a really good time to invest in some PVC pipe with threaded water proof caps. Never know when a man or woman might want to bury something!!! ;D

Terry
Knight #1

"Life's a Lemon, I want my money back!" (Meatloaf)
 


Offline Nighthawk

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Re: Ancients in Germany may have come to an end
February 04, 2009, 10:50:28 AM
Seems like a good time to invest in a AR-15 or an AK-47!!!  ;D

NUMISMATIST
PHILATELIST
BIBLIOPHILE
ART LOVER
AMATEUR HISTORIAN & PHILOSOPHER
GRANDFATHER of 9
COLLECTING COINS SINCE 1971
 


Offline TwoShadows

Re: Ancients in Germany may have come to an end
February 04, 2009, 11:39:53 AM
Only if you are buying from a private individual or collector. Other than that will bring a required phone call and paperwork!!! ;D

Terry
Knight #1

"Life's a Lemon, I want my money back!" (Meatloaf)
 


Offline Paint Your Wagon

Re: Ancients in Germany may have come to an end
February 04, 2009, 10:56:13 PM
There are many strange things at play right now in the world and, in the end, it will not be to benefit the citizens of any country. Seems like a really good time to invest in some PVC pipe with threaded water proof caps. Never know when a man or woman might want to bury something!!! ;D

Don't forget to throw a lot of steel plates around as decoys and put the pvc under steel
Otherwise anyone with a metal detector will detect

Where I am going I ain't certain
Where I am going I don't know
All I know is that I'am on my way