Young Members.

[latman]

I have just been reading through some of the older topics from way before I was a member (yes I know I should have read everything by now *hangs head in shame*) and I noticed a few discussions on starting a young collector program.

Personaly I think this is a great idea. With what the Castle reprsents, and with the quality of people here, we have a lot to offer. I am not sure how it would operate, and what sort of access should be granted, but I put the idea out there and invite discussion and comment.

If there is support for the idea, I would be happy to help put together a program, and I will try to rope in a few members with teaching experience, Kurt?

I would also like to hear what our current younger members have to say on the idea.

[CoinCrusader42]

I have two grandchildren who live nearby.  (Just down the hill).

They are into coin collecting, and belong to another forum.

I'm certain they would be interested in some sort of a junior program.

 

[KurtS]

If there is support for the idea, I would be happy to help put together a program, and I will try to rope in a few members with teaching experience, Kurt?

I'm always interested in the educational aspects of coins--and happy to be a source of info for those subjects I know about--IHCs in particular.    Could someone point me to the discussions of "young members programs"?  I could not find the links---thanks!

[Topher]

I think it would be great if we collectively put a program together to educate young collectors.  It would make for a great opportunity to get YN's interested in the hobby, and keep them interested.  Consider it one of the philanthropic arms of the KOTCT.

[TwoShadows]

We have discussed this through the years but continue to hit one major stumbling block. How do you get confirmation from their PARENTS that it is okay for them to be involved. I know one instance where a young collector got involved in trading and the truth of the matter there was NOTHING for him to trade. Eventually his mother started returning coins from strangers with addresses all over the world. I just want it to be on the up and up and the parents, somehow, some way MUST give their child and US their blessings. We could do it by mail or by phone but online is not quite safe in my mind. If you guys/gals can make it work I would fully support the program but would like to see it in writing first. Basic rules, regulations, guidelines or whatever you wish to call them. I can see the program working AFTER moms and dads become aware of what their children are doing!

As for CoinCrusader and his little ones, there is a starting point right there, and WE already have the confirmation we need. But, those little ones may end up getting the other kids in their class interested so we will need mom and dad to step forward with a signed release or something of that nature? That would also tell us the kid(s) are actually interested in such a program under the guidance of their parents and we would not have to worry about reprecussions from angry parents. Perhaps a printed up form and explanation to send to the parents, which they would sign and return, would be in order?

I would suggest the following committee be set up to devise a club constitution of sorts and then go from there?

Latman, CoinCrusader, KurtS and Topher

Get together, see what you can come up with, and perhaps you have some youngsters in mind? Keep us posted. Oh, thanks for volunteering!

[KurtS]

"How do you get confirmation from their PARENTS that it is okay for them to be involved."

This is a very important point, particularly here in the states, where parents have become justifiably protective (well, usually).
I have volunteered for several non-profits involving kids, so I'll consider how our protective measures might apply to a YN program here--while keeping it fun and interesting for kids. 

[Muckeye]

Snooba might be interested in this, she has her own YN.
Prawn.
regards,

[Nighthawk]

If you folks can ever get this YN thing off the ground, I'd like to help out too. I can supply/donate inexpensive world coins by the BUCKET if need be. Just let me know, and I'll be glad to pitch in and help! 

[latman]

Ok, if we want to give this a try I think I may have an idea. For those of you who don't know, asside from being a business man, I am also a martial arts instructor. In martial arts, you cannot progress to the next belt without having fullfilled all the requirements of the grading. Juniors may train of their own accord, the instructor tells them when they are ready to grade, but they need a parents consent to take a grading.

Applying this principle here, juniors may join and learn through the program, but may not progress to trading without the consent of an administrator or program leader, and without the consent of a parent. Young members can be sent an email on joining with all the details to pass onto their parents. Parents should be granted a special "young members parent" membership, so they can monitor what happens here.

Young members have limited or no access to trading material, so there should never be any expectation placed upon them that they have to trade. It is more likely that members will want to send coins, expecting nothing in return, simply because that is the type of people here. Take Erik for example. How good does everyone feel when Erik received his coins recently and we all saw how happy he was?

The progress to trading is more a consent from parents to allow their kids to receive coins. This can be confirmed by a follow up email, with a written consent form, as well as a contact number for forum members in various countries. I think also that packages sent to young members should always be sent to the parents.

Another thing to consider is that young members have a limited access to the forum. A new section should be added specifically for them, and some areas should be off limits. In this way, we may be able to get the forum classified as kid safe.

Thoughts?

[KurtS]

Sean,
I think those are some well-considered points to give the YN a series of achievable goals, while involving the parents throughout the process—I'm impressed!  Very good idea regarding sending packages directly to parents.

A new section should be added specifically for them, and some areas should be off limits. In this way, we may be able to get the forum classified as kid safe.

Definitely.  To add there…kids also do well with their own "special place" where they build a sense of ownership and responsibility—with some guidance from good role models.

Here are a few thoughts of my own from working w/kids directly—as well as writing software for K-12 education. These are probably obvious to parents already, but I write this stuff in detail when I do software proposals,  because I'm ObviousMan and I cannot help myself. 

•   In any learning/achievement process, kids need goals that are both reinforced by role models and have personal meaning—ie they think it's fun and interesting.
•   I've found kids respond best to structure built on goals vs. details. For instance, when I taught art classes for kids, I found they had the most fun when I taught them a technique and then set them loose to try their own ideas. On the other hand, if I tried to get all the kids to paint a tree…I ran across a lot of resistance. There must be some analogy here to coin collecting….
•   Teaching kids to rely on you constantly for their learning, stimulation, and reinforcement will easily wear you down; I learned this the hard way. Under the best circumstances, you want to mentor kids to explore their own ideas, and encourage them to interact with other kids to sustain and develop their interest in collecting. If an adult directs/rewards/reinforces kids too much, they'll easily foster a dependency there.
•   To support my previous point, I think it will be important to get a "critical mass" of YNs to keep the interest going amongst themselves—so it feels like "their club".  Of course, reaching that useful mass takes time and careful oversight.

A few thoughts which I hope are relevant to the diverse cultures represented here. 

[latman]

Good points Kurt. I don't think it is a good idea to set any sort of structured learning into this. Kids learn at their own pace, and they will all have different wants and needs in regard to this hobby. Their section could include an area that will have general information on the hobby in a glossary type way, but interactive in that they can request more information on any of the basics. It could also have specific learning, in that someone may request information on a particular aspect of the hobby, a type of coin, history etc.

My opinion is that it should encourage the hobby and help YNs look out for some of the pitfalls along the way, as well as be a meeting place and a learning place.

[justabeginner]

Good idea guys.. I'm all for it although I can't think of anymore genius suggestions

[Muckeye]

I'm very impressed reading all of the above.
I think this line of thought is going to take the Forum into a whole new area of interesting activity.
If I may be so bold, it may even be a first in the field of Numismatics.
Especiall on a world wide basis.
Congratulations and good luck, I am prepared to help where I can.
regards,

[Topher]

Some excellent points above by latman and Kurt.  I think the first thing we need to do is decide what we want to do.  Do we want a site where the kids can learn about numismatics? do we want to include a forum for the kids to ask questions, post finds, etc.?  What age range to we want to target?  I could think of a thousand more questions, but the first step is to decide on HOW we want to accomplish this.

I would personally like to see a site with informative articles about coins, to get kids started in the hobby.  Adding a forum may be a bit much at the start, but what about short mini-quizzes on the material, to give kids an incentive.  Maybe have a reward for completing a certain number of mini-quizzes in a certain area, etc.  Maybe even little competitions for kids to design their own coin or banknote.  I doubt we'd have any trouble coming up with "sponsors" for the prizes, and I'm sure we could get heavyweights in the industry involved if it doesn't take too much of their time once we get the ball rolling ourselves.

Just thinking out loud for now, but I'm not done thinking either. 

We can always use our own YN's as test subjects initially.  I know I've got two little sponges of my own to try out.

Some examples to look at:

US Mint:

http://www.usmint.gov/kids/

ANA YN program:

http://www.money.org/Content/NavigationMenu/ExploretheWorldofMoney/YoungNumismatists/default.htm

How do we want our YN program to be defined?

[Topher]

If I may be so bold, it may even be a first in the field of Numismatics.
Especiall on a world wide basis.

This comment alone has sold me on the idea.

[ElleKitty]

To throw my two pence in, I think the US Mint's YN program is too childish.  The graphics and flash and music are all probably WAY above our level of computer expertise to begin with; but I believe the content should be presented to YNs in such a way that they learn how to deal with the adult world of Coin Collecting, for the future.  I don't want to see us use "baby talk" to get them interested? 

[latman]

Agree Miss Kitty. I don't think we are aiming to drag in numbers with glitz. The aim should be to encourage, teach, mentor and develop those who are actually interested in the hobby.

Topher, your thinking is on par with a lot of what I have been working on.

In point form so far for discussion:

- Parents involvement from the start with intro email and 'YNS parent' membership
- YNs work towards being able to 'trade' which is actually permission to receive coins
- All packages sent to the parents
- Provide phone contact for each country/continent
- Kid safe rating
- Limited access to some areas of the forum
- Special area just for them
- General info area where they can research - can ask questions, request more info
- Area with quizzes, competitions
- Members can volunteer as mentors, YNs can then choose a mentor from the list if they wish
- Perhaps a monthly coin package to each YN that they can research and ask questions about. This then gives them coins they can trade among themselves. Members can volunteer coins into a central pool which are then sent by the castle.


These are the inital points so far. If we have missed anything, please let us know. Please critique and/or offer more suggestions.

If anyone has articles the have written, or know about, that they feel would be beneficial to YNs, please start to get them together.
Likewise anything they feel would help.

Perhaps don't send them yet until we have ironed out all the details and have the go ahead to do this, but I feel we are on the right path.

[AdamL]

All of this sounds very good. I'll be happy to help out in any way I can, including donating a few coins and supplies.

[justabeginner]

Welll.... If I'm considered a YN.... Why am I not getting 20 morgans every month.. Not good enough guys..

[latman]

I think you will be too OLD for this program Justa, 

[KurtS]

Continuing the discussion...

"I think the US Mint's YN program is too childish.  The graphics and flash and music are all probably WAY above our level of computer expertise to begin with; but I believe the content should be presented to YNs in such a way that they learn how to deal with the adult world of Coin Collecting, for the future. "

Agreed—although this is pretty standard content delivery for online educational sites. That said, most "kid sites" I see depend on eye candy to get a student's attention--versus well-written content to engage their minds. Compare here the sugary visuals of "h.i.p Pocket Change" to the dry, verbose lectures on that same site. Carrot & Stick.  Yawwwn…did somebody forget that learning should be fun?  As a joking aside, what's with that rat logo?

While there's a place for fun interactive features, it's only worthwhile to invest all that time if the results meet specific, core goals. It seems to me the goals of our YN group won't be for kids to drop by anonymously to play "cool games"; one main goal here should be fostering an educational community with other real kids—which should mean fun stuff like games and competition.

Well, since I mentioned…how do we determine how somebody qualifies as a YN—versus an "internet persona", particularly some adult who wants to pose as a kid?  How do we verify an identity for anyone?

Do we want a site where the kids can learn about numismatics? do we want to include a forum for the kids to ask questions, post finds, etc.?  What age range to we want to target?

Very good points!  To that end, I think one of the core objectives should be to allow kids to spread their enthusiasm to other YNs in a safe, supported, moderated environment.

I would personally like to see a site with informative articles about coins, to get kids started in the hobby.

This would be a real asset to all collectors—and I bet that many members here could write articles well-suited to inspire an YN. I bet we all have a numismatic subject that excites us enough to pass on a legacy to a new generation of collectors.

Without repeating all of Sean's points, I am completely in agreement about what he's suggested, especially in regards to a strong umbrella of safety—and direct participation by parents. Here a "pilot program" might be first explored with collectors who are also parents?

Why am I not getting 20 morgans every month.. Not good enough guys..

Joking aside, Justa's funny comment brings up an important point, right?

[TwoShadows]

Justa you are not getting the Morgans for the same reason I am NOT getting the free GOLD coins. Just what age do you have to reach to get those free gold coins?

[justabeginner]

Sorry Twoshadows... You missed your chance unless you can get a time machine... I on the other hand... HEHEHHEHEHE...

[latman]

how do we determine how somebody qualifies as a YN—versus an "internet persona", particularly some adult who wants to pose as a kid?  How do we verify an identity for anyone?

I have been thinking about that too. An idea that has been floating around in the back of my mind is total anonymity. But how do you enforce it? Kids being kids may not recognise danger until it is too late. Do we structure the membership so that no personal info of the child is taken, no age, sex, location etc. They apply through the YNs program on the assumption that they are young members. We can provide on going education that it is a rule of the Castle that no YN member may arrange to meet another member physically under any circumstance. I haven't done any research yet, but I am sure there will be guidelines and information on safety with the kids safe network.

All addresses for sending coins should be held by one or two members only, and those are parents addresses. All coins sent to YNs are sent from those one or two members. As postage costs will add up over time, I will donate funds for postage, and run some auctions with the proceeds going towards the program.


I am still brainstorming here and have heaps more written down in various places around the home. If everyone keeps throwing issues, concerns, ideas up here as they think of them, then we can start to put together a plan.

As I seem to be a bit caught up in the safety and admin side of things at the moment, does anyone want to start thinking about content?

Again, doesn't have to be structured, my brain doesn't work that way anyway. I will have 20 ideas that may eventually come together in a completely different way by the time it is finished.

On another note, I finally took posession of my 1930 penny today, after having bought it in Feb. It was coming from Perth on the other side of the country and there was no way I was going to risk it in the mail. The man I bought it from is a retired professor from Edith Cowan University, who was a senior lecturer in Education. I told him about what we are trying to do and he said he may be interested in helping. He is a lifetime coin collector, who has recently sold all his collection, but just can't seem to keep away and is still buying and selling. Strange that  I will not pressure him as he is retired, but I said I would send him an invitation so that he can have a look at what we have done.  Any comments on bringing someone from outside the Castle to help?

Why am I not getting 20 morgans every month

As part of qualifying for the trading/receiving coins membership 'upgrade', YNs will be made fully aware of what type of coins they can expect to receive. Both through discussion, and pictures.

[KurtS]

On another note, I finally took posession of my 1930 penny today

Wow...congrats!  That must have been exciting! 

does anyone want to start thinking about content?

I'll keep that thought in my brain and see what happens. I'm currently spending most of my "brain time" on a product I'm developing, but that might lend some relevant ideas here.

[latman]

Kurt, it was nerve racking. We were supposed to meet at a cafe called Jamaica Blue at 10.30 this morning in a large shoping center. Neither of us knew there were two Jamaica Blues at this shoping center. Of course we were both at differnt ones. But it worked out in the end. He even gave me the page from the actual catalogue it was advertised in when he originally bought it, as well as the certificates of authenticity.

[KurtS]

He even gave me the page from the actual catalogue it was advertised in when he originally bought it, as well as the certificates of authenticity.

That's very thorough of him...he sounds like a guy who cares about integrity; congrats again.   

[justabeginner]

Nice.. You must have had sweet dreams of it everyday up till now 

[latman]

Back on topic, and just thinking out loud again, does anyone know if it is possible to make a thread invisible to certain members? My reason being that instead of restricting access to certain ares, perhaps the author of a thread can have the option to make the topic invisible to YNs if they feel it is unappropriate.

[justabeginner]

I think there should be, maybe Twoshadows or TKO knows better..

[Topher]

There are definitely some threads that shouldn't be viewed by YN's.  That being said, would we prefer to have a separate set of forums for the YN's?

[TwoShadows]

We already have that capability. I am still watching and listening, as is TKO, to your discussions concerning this matter. When you get it all ironed out the arrangements can and will be made for such a section. We will then seek out two VOLUNTEER moderators for this project and go from there. Setting up the section and restricting YNs from the rest of the forum should not be a problem. Will have to get with TKO on this subject. Proceed gentlemen!

[ElleKitty]

...does anyone know if it is possible to make a thread invisible to certain members?

A single thread, not to my knowledge. However, an administrator can restrict access to certain forums depending upon set permissions for a certain member. 

...I finally took possession of my 1930 penny today....

Congratulations, Sean.  I am absolutely green with envy.  I do hope you will share pictures of your 30 penny so that we can all drool over it.  I am hoping to get the 25 penny at the beginning of December, and that will be as complete as my Pre-Decimal penny set will ever be.

[latman]

You never know Miss Kitty, the gentleman I bought mine from let me pay for it over a long period of time, the only way I could justify the expense.

[latman]

More on the safety side. I have been doing some research into getting a kid safe rating for our YNs program. Getting the rating won't be difficult, as it is essentially answering questions about the type of content, whether the forum content is moderated, and whether it has any unsuitable material for kids. We will qualify I believe, based on what we are proposing.

The problem for me runs a little deeper. As all of you who have kids will know, the idea of having your kids approached by a stranger with bad intents on the net is terrifying.

I have contacted the Family Online Safety Institute and requested some help with this issue. This institute is one of two that I am looking at that rates sites as kid safe, this one seems a little more thorough, in that they cover forums as well. I am unsure if they can provide help with this particular issue, but am hoping they can point me in the right direction if they can't.


To sumarise the safety issues as I see them. No particular order here, and again, if I have missed anything, please add.

Content

- The YNs program should have a section specifically for them where they can engage with one another in a safe environment.
- Access to the main forum should be restricted to areas dealing specifically with coins.

Verification

I feel that obtaining 100% verification we are dealing with a child is going to be difficult. However I feel we can get very close. Ideas so far:

- Email to parents upon registration explaining the program and inviting them to join with 'Young Members Parent'
membership
- To progress to trading/receiving coins, written consent AS WELL as phone consent from the parent.

Personal information.

- No personal information available through the forum, no age, sex, location details in kids profiles
- Addresses for receiving coins must be in the parents name, and addresses held by only one or two people who will handle all the mailings

Contact between YNs

- No ability for YNs to be able to contact or be contacted by anyone via email. Exception being admin/moderators. All contact must be through the forum, posted within topic.  All trades between YNs must go through whomever is in charge of mailings. This may be a bit tedious, but it is safe. I have said before, and I will reconfirm that I will ensure the Castle is never out of pocket for postage expenses.


If I have missed anything here, please add. I believe the way to make it safe for kids is to make it so difficult for anyone posing as a kid to be able to contact anyone outside the forum they will not bother joining, or they will not stay if they do.

All these safety measures should be displayed on the application page of the site, in the introductory email to parents, on the consent forms, and mentioned with the phone verification.


Comments?

[AdamL]

It seems like we have a couple people here who really know what they're doing
I'm not so good with all this making of rules and policies, but am glad that some of us are. I just look forward to helping some young people out in this great hobby

[latman]

Glad you want to help Adam. As the members will be closer to your age than mine, since I am 'middle aged' according to justa  , perhaps you might consider volunteering as a moderator?