Happy, Sad and Disappointed.

[EgCollector]

Hi all,

As some of you know i didnt login to KOTCT for a month and a half as i was studying and examening for my PhD. When i returned back i was so happy that i wasnt forgotten as it happened on the CCF. Many members sent me Birthday greetings whether by mail or posted it on the site. Others even sent me mail to make sure that everything is OK. So Thank you all my friends very much.

I tried to read what i missed, and i was very sad to read a joke on God and Prophet Muhammed. http://membersforum.knightsofthecointable.com/index.php?topic=1491.0
I was also disappointed that this joke was posted on: June 19, 2008, 03:23:55 AM and since then none of the members or the Moderators have replied to it. I assumed that when the members didnt reply, it is a sign of disscontent or at least they had nothing to say, but what about the Moderators.

The  Liar's Bench aka... Pickle Barrel forum has a tip below it that says "Tell your whoppers here! - Just keep it civil".?!!!! And i dont think that telling a joke on God, or any Prophet is civil whatever your believes are !!! I think that one should respect others beleives whether i agree or disagree with it.

I would like to note that, my response and feelings will be the same if it was on Christ, Moses or any other prophet. I hesitated many times to post a reply on the forum, but i couldnt tolerate to just stand still.

Dear friends,

As a loyal member to multicultural coin community, i was extremely saddened to read a posted joke on the Prophet Muhammad...I am sure that it was posted with no ill-intentions. However the repercussions are deeper than that. Allow me to explain and elaborate.

Let's recall few instances: When the Danish newspaper Jyllands Posten published a series of cartoons lampooning the Prophet Muhammad, the editors probably expected Muslims to respond with the same timidity and indifference that has characterized Christian responses to religious provocation and blasphemy. The editors couldn't have been more wrong.
Salman Rushdie probably thought he was being deliciously iconoclastic when he published The Satanic Verses in which he portrayed the Prophet Muhammad's sexual fantasies and compared his wives to prostitutes. This kind of thing goes over big in the literary salons of the West. Iranian leader, Ayatollah Khomeyni, on the other hand, issued a death fatwa against the author.

Obviously, in the Muslim world, blasphemy is a big deal. But if Muslim intolerance has gone too far, have Christians taken tolerance to excess? In America blasphemy is a fashionable way for art to challenge conventional norms. Remember the fellow who got a grant from the National Endowment for the Arts for his photograph depicting a crucifix immersed in urine?

Evangelical Christians and conservative Catholics are frequently portrayed by secular liberals as fierce religious fanatics who are trying to impose their morality on others and perhaps even to turn America into a theocracy. But what is striking about conservative Christians is how passive and invertebrate so many of them are when their deepest beliefs are violated. The distinguishing quality of the Christian seems to be "niceness" (Turning the other cheek as originating  from the Sermon on the Mount in the New Testament is to respond to an aggressor without violence). Lets be clear that I don't mean this "niceness" as a compliment. When a man calls your wife a whore it is not a virtue to respond with niceness. When your religion is mocked and blasphemed, it is sign of cowardice to pretend not to notice.

Muslims don't. Activist Muslims were not amused by Rushdie's book, and they are equally incensed about the Danish newspaper's cartoons showing Muhammad wearing a turban with a lit fuse, and Muhammad telling would-be suicide bombers that they should slow down because heaven is running out of virgins. Protests have erupted across the Islamic world, and there have been calls to ban Danish products.

The reaction of newspapers in Europe has been to reprint the offensive cartoons in the name of freedom of expression. "We would have done exactly the same thing if it had been a pope, rabbi or priest caricature," wrote the editor of France Soir. He was reflecting the secular view of fairness. This concept of fairness was exhibited when Muslims complained that school girls were prohibited from wearing Islamic dress. The French government responded by declaring that Christians could not wear crosses either. Look, say the French, we are being fair by discriminating equally against all religions. This was the point being made by the editor of the paper: we are insulting the Muslims just like we routinely insult Jews and Christians.

When the movie "The Last Temptation of Christ" came out several years ago, it was shown to critical acclaim throughout the West despite its blasphemous portrayal of Christ's sexual fantasies at Calvary. The only countries that banned the movie were the Muslim countries (with the exception of Qatar). The reason is that Muslims consider Christ, like Moses, to be a prophet. Not only do Muslims protect the reputation of Muhammad, but apparently they also care about how Christ is portrayed as well. Whose reputation silent Christians are protecting is anybody's guess.

[EgCollector]

Yes, I know that freedom of speech is a right and maybe the Muslim protesters don't understand that very well. But there is an equivalent blindness that we in the West should be attentive to. Sometimes in focusing so much on our rights, we are liable to forget what is right. The fact that you have a right to do something does not mean you are right to do it.

The issue here isn't censorship, it is the deliberate willingness to mock the sacred sensibilities of others. Secular Americans know exactly what I am talking about. If an American newspaper were to distort and discredit Martin Luther King's legacy by printing a series of cartoons depicting him as a drug-dealer or a street thug, the reaction might be quite similar to what we are now seeing in the Muslim world. The only difference is that, in the case of Martin Luther King, there would be widespread and justifiable howls of "racism" and the need for America to look into the darkness of its soul. I highly doubt that other American newspapers would reprint the cartoons to show their support for freedom of speech.

There are things that we in the West will stand up for. Unfortunately, traditional religious faith is usually not one of them.

It seems that the holiness of Muhammad has a fair amount of traction in the Muslim world, evidence in the literature even in the hadith praising his virtues.  Here holiness is not to be confused with being an object of worship (as in the Protestant as well as Saudi-Salafi understanding of people like Ben Laden) but evidenced in a set of prohibitions surrounding how he is "handled."  The images of the footprints of Muhammad come to mind.

However, I would be carefully with opening up a new dichotomy between Western protestant and Islamic ethos in regards of holiness. For one, I think that viewing the West through its protestant ethos captures only part of the picture: the West is also Catholic, and there is fascination and admiration for religious figures that made inroads into Protestant culture (think about the death-of-the-pope spectacle, Mel Gibson's passion, charismatic Christians, the Guru subculture).Secondly, if we look into American culture, I think there are ample examples of holiness attached to people, places, events - just think about everything attached to American patriotism, which has by some been described as civil religion. Of course one could say the sacredness of the symbols of the American Dream are "secular" - but how can we draw clear lines between secular and religious holiness/sacredness? I think, as has been pointed out by various others, there are clear taboo topics in different cultures of "the West" as well, taboos in terms of things that can't be made fun of. May be the Western delusion is that "we" don't judge/perceive "non-religious" taboos the same ways we judge/perceive "religious" taboos. The Western "protestant" non-understanding of the Muslim outcry could then be read as the Western othering of its own inability to practically establish its ideals, effectively projecting its own failure to stick to its enlightened ideals on "the Muslim".I know there is a tension there.

In addition to the explanation based on Protestant sensibilities, I would add that the overriding ethos of the modern West is post-Freudian in the sense that the cultural "common sense" is that taboos (including respect for the sacred) are considered unhealthy complexes to be brought out in the open and defied--thereby liberating the individual (ego).  Therefore "freedom of expression" becomes more than a civic principle and in itself become a technique of "self-transformation".

I would add one other teaching angle:   I will suggest that the Protestant ethos of the West, which dismisses the idea that any human being, or any material object, can be “holy,” desensitizes us to the ways that holiness is framed in other cultures.  We do not print pictures of Black Sambo or cartoons of the holocaust for political reasons, not for religious reasons.  Images of Jesus abound, and many of them are schlock (is that a real word?) and some, like Serrano’s “Piss Christ,” are serious art and some are meant to offend, but most of us brush these off, because in the Protestant ethos, that which is holy is transcendent and thus out of the reach of cartoonists and art. Same mentality applies to Judaism in not even writing the word God or uttering its name, Jehovah is really "the one who is" referred to in the third person. Turks refer to Muhammad in their writings and daily interactions as Mahmet or Ahmet so that if ridiculed it not be a reference to the true prophet Muhammad. All of this raises the question of whether most of us can even understand the concept of a holy object which must not be profaned, or a holy human being which must not be defamed.  The BVM (Blessed Virgin Mary) in Catholicism would be our closest analogy to the position of Muhammed.

On the other hand, the intimate conceptual connection between God and Muhammad--I'm thinking of the shahada (oath of faith) in particular--is also largely unparalleled in the Jewish tradition. (See, however, Maimonides' 13 Articles of Faith, whose emphasis on Moses may reflect the influence of Islamic thought and respond tosupercessionist claims.) Unflattering images of the Prophet are in that regard blasphemous in and of themselves.
I hope that i was clear in my examples. I do hope that you "got" some of the meaning of the place of the Prophet Muhammad as well as all prophets to the Muslim faith.Thanks for your attention and understanding.

Peace.

[ElleKitty]

Amr, as a Moderator of the forum, I can only say that there has been a very lax attitude toward things posted, be they politcal, religious, moral, or anything else.  The forum runs like clockwork and we have never had to step in and handle any problem short of someone unable to log in.

Now we have a situation on our hands.  I am sorry that this intentioned joke offended you, and I can well see why it did.  I will/have removed the post from the forum, and will ask our Membership to be more considerate of your devotion and faith.

[scottishmoney]

When the movie "The Last Temptation of Christ" came out several years ago, it was shown to critical acclaim throughout the West despite its blasphemous portrayal of Christ's sexual fantasies at Calvary. The only countries that banned the movie were the Muslim countries (with the exception of Qatar). The reason is that Muslims consider Christ, like Moses, to be a prophet. Not only do Muslims protect the reputation of Muhammad, but apparently they also care about how Christ is portrayed as well. Whose reputation silent Christians are protecting is anybody's guess.

I do not believe that banning movies is a good thing, anymore than banning and burning books.  I believe myself that the best ban is my wallet.  I had no such desire to see the movie, anymore so than a movie which was negative to any religion, or people.

My personal thing is this, in my career, and my hobby I have been exposed to too many people from so many different beliefs, nationalities etc. that I find myself only the more fascinated with the world around me, so that far from disrespecting others views, beliefs etc. I find myself curious for more knowledge and understanding.

Being that I do not any longer adhere to any religion, but only spirituality, I find the inner freedom to feel at home in a Taoist temple, a Christian church, an Orthodox church, a Buddhist temple etc.  I would very much like to attend a Mosque sometime, and a Synagogue, never having been.  I believe the more you know about people, the more you appreciate, and the more enlightened you are.  Maybe more people should do this, we would find we have a lot more in common than we currently think we do.

[AdamL]

Amr, I don't remember the joke, or if I responded. It has been deleted by now I think. I am very sorry to hear that you read that and were upset by it. I'm sure no one meant to be insulting. But maybe a little more sensitivity on such issues would be prudent.

 

[TwoShadows]

One of the MOST important things we find in this forum is indeed the right to politely voice our disapproval. The members always respond in kind as there has, to my knowledge, never been an intentional posting to offend anyone. We are fully aware of what other forums offer and the hand slapping and verbal abuse one may encounter. We don't have that here.
The joke thread, so to speak, is just that. A place to tell jokes and quite frankly every joke I have ever heard could offend someone, somewhere in someway. The whole world, regardless of culture, religion, government or color, in my opinion all desire the same things out of life. Hopefully peace and understanding can be found here.
I am like Scottishmoney as organized religion just wasn't for me. Here in the States it leans very hard towards the business side and everyone knows what comes with business. I need not explain any further on that issue.
Personally each and every one of us MUST find our maker, regardless of what we may call him or her, and I think such a journey is a private trip. No one can give you religion and no one on this planet cam promise you your place in heaven or the other side. It is up to each of us to find that path and then live that which we believe. Only by actually living that which believe 24 hours a day, 7 days a week, 12 months out of the year does a man or woman finally find true peace. Anything less than that or used when convenient is NOT religion nor spirituallity in my mind.
I respect eg_collector's honesty and williness to come forward to all of us with his personal feelings. I understand his complaint but would also say there are those in the world who still today must hide their religious beliefs out of fear of reprisals from both society and organized religion. And I must keep in mind millions of people have died at the hands of religion, which is enforced by man, throughout world history and it continues today. I guess anything that breeds hate, fear or prejudice towards other men and woman doesn't register in my mind as real religion.
In ending I would say I have seen many things change throughout my life and still wonder who decides what is right and what is wrong? In our hearts and minds we already know morals and ethics but those in power continue to alter those rules as time passes?
Thank you eg_collector for your efforts to explain your feelings and hopefully you will remain a much needed friend and collector from an amazing land. Lets continue to share our hobby, our coins and a good laugh from time to time! We need all three!

[Paint Your Wagon]

And do I want to stay after it has gone anywhere like moderators deleting posts and we watching not to offend mam or dad or one of the childrun

[ElleKitty]

Problem?  Certainly not.  A situation is singular.   This has happened, and as a community I am sure we'll not let it happen again.  As for the offending post, I didn't delete it, I just moved it into TKO's office.

[scottishmoney]

And do I want to stay after it has gone anywhere like moderators deleting posts and we watching not to offend mam or dad or one of the childrun

I haven't been to the Mam and Daddems place since last September, is it still around?

[TwoShadows]

I would like to think WE don't have a situation at all. I think one thing WE must keep in mind is the mere fact the English language can be very tough for other nationalities to master and even tougher for many to put into words. Having spent a few years writing a column for a local newspaper I found that one word could set off a firestorm. At times I may have mistakenly used the wrong word and at other times my meaning was misinterpreted. It can be really tough trying to say, or write as it is, the perfect post or response, regardless of your best intentions. I know I have never tried to slam anyone on this forum, for any reason, nor do I intend to start. Guess I got all that out of my system in some other past forums?
I can think a few times, when I remained silent, and still caught h___ for doing so. Actually the silent, no response treatment will really make them crawl when they are tryng to bring you down to their level. A few of us here mastered that one not too long ago.
One thing is for certain and that is the fact I (We) have total freedom here and regardless of who you are and where you are from I have NO desire to start policing anyone or any topic. I found out long ago that I better serve myself by avoiding discussions on politics, government or religion as no matter how you try someone is going to feel the heat during those discussions.
We are al friends and ALL of us have different views of other cultures, governments and religion and being aware of our differences is why we have succeeded thus far. I guess the way I see things is all of us have the right to think, do and say the things we want as long as WE DON'T try to force our ways onto the backs of others. Personally I would like to see this discussion end as it would be a no win for anyone to continue.

[TwoShadows]

Shoot we can fight over those any time! As we ALL know there is NO GREATER classic than the Buffalo Nickel. And of course I KNOW everyone agrees with me!!! I will give gold and silver a close second and third.

[scottishmoney]

Yeppers, I can even get away with a Ukrainian phrase in my sig file - even though Russian is our conversational language!   

[TKO]

The posting has been deleted........

[S.George]

 

Sir AMR:
Hope the present position will soothe your feelings.   As a Christian, I like Hindus, Muslims, etc.,   In fact we lived near the Mosque and I have a lot of Muslim Friends.
Please forget this, as it is not posted, intentionally, I believe.   (I have not read it, too)
Sincerely
George

[scottishmoney]

Sir AMR:
Hope the present position will soothe your feelings.   As a Christian, I like Hindus, Muslims, etc.,   In fact we lived near the Mosque and I have a lot of Muslim Friends.
Please forget this, as it is not posted, intentionally, I believe.   (I have not read it, too)
Sincerely
George

Mahatma Mohandas Karamchand Gandhi was the ultimate person in respect and love of others, just so happened he was also Indian

[RenaL]

For those who didn't have the chance to read the "joke", here is as much as I remember;

A Frank crusader burns in the village house that he lit on the way to Jerusalem, and as his soul rises to the skies, he comes across Izrail and asks if he is Jesus Christ, he replies that he isn't and that Jesus is upstairs.
He smiles with joy, seeing that Jesus is indeed higher than an angel of muslims.
As he continues he comes across Mohammad, he again asks him if he's Jesus Christ and when he gets the same answer he gets happier, thinks "that is cool, Jesus is higher than Mohammad, and I'll see him as a reward for my dedication to this crusade"
Then he comes across God and again asks if he's Jesus Christ.
- I'm not Jesus Christ, I'm God almighty, Jesus is upstairs.
you must be tired, why don't you rest here a bit"
The martyr gets even happier, thinking that Jesus is higher than God himself.
God asks if he would like something to drink, and snaps his fingers "Hey Jes, two coffess down here, and make it quick."

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Now, please consider this as a small demonstration intended to help you understand Amr's feelings.
I read "the joke" the day it was posted, and I was hoping that this would go unnoticed.
Some time ago another joke was posted with a blatant muslim and an amish counterpart,
it may be considered funny, but if you aren't a member of either paty.

I personally think some topics should be kept off in this coin forum.
And we are grown-ups that can tell the difference of a good joke and some juvenile stories that insult any other group.

[KurtS]

Without covering every detail raised by Amr, but quickly surmising from RenaL's paraphrase of the "joke", I don't see an intention to mock Mohammad, Islam or believers. Of course, that's in the context of my understanding, and other people may react differently. That's one mild joke, if you ask me!  In a perfect world, people should avoid jokes and controversy altogether.

My next point may easily be misinterpreted, but obviously the West has a tradition of poking fun at their own dogmas and "sacred cows" which will not change. I can only guess this arose as societies changed from an enforced theocracy to secularism--as a way to continually assert independence from social control by clergy. People I know enjoy being irreverent, even towards their own faiths. This is especially true in Europe, which takes it a lot further than Americans (Jyllands-Posten comes to mind here). Things become incendiary when different cultures interpret the intent of others.

While I may have some religious convictions, I'm often very irreverent towards religion and all the baggage that entails. And, I will keep on being that way--although not deliberately mean, slanderous or vicious towards anyone with similar or dissimilar beliefs--especially towards Amr. Understanding intent and context of others is just as important as understanding oneself--IMO.

[RenaL]

Ok, maybe I needed to attach a note; my version of the joke is not the real one, the original one had a suicide bomber, and the prophets were replaced.

[Humpybong]

OK now.....enough has been said on this subject and I think we all agree that this is a numismatic forum and not a forum for jokes that may inadvertentlyoffend some members.

We have a great forum of friends here so lets move on to coins, coins coins and more coins.

Thank you everyone.

This thread is now locked.

[Muckeye]

Where is the padlock???

[Humpybong]

Well I did lock it but looks likes I have been over-ruled and this has been canceled by someone.

I have also lost the ability to delete posts, remove threads and lock threads.....in other word I to have been censored.

NOT HAPPY....that this has been done!!

[CoinCrusader42]

humpybong,

I'm sure there was just some computer/technical thing that caused your commands to be over ridden.

 

[Humpybong]

No it is not you OldDan.....just politics.


That is 2 thing that should not be on this forum...politics and religon

Can cause a lot of problems (even though you have Bush to joke about and we had Johnny)

[Muckeye]

Ride with the tide Gary, lets hope there has been no intentional offence.
Patience has solved a lot of problems.
regards,

[TwoShadows]

I am NOT aware of anyone over riding anything? But, my own personal opinion, when a thread deserves to be locked then it deserves to be deleted? Guess it falls under my beliefs that a "wound will only get worse if it is not treated?" If there is nothing worth reading or commenting on in this thread then why retain it? If someone down the road is going to be offended then why retain it?
As you know I try to see both sides of every issue and most of the time I can, which I consider a blessing, so I am very slow to slap fingers or hang a member out to dry. We all make mistakes and quite honestly, as I have said many times before, putting things into the correct words can sometimes be very tough but getting everyone to understand you meaning may be virtually impossible. We are dealing with members from all over the world and there are many differences among us. While from time to time we may step on a toe or two I have NEVER seen a KOTCT member intentionally attempt to "slam" another member.  So, in ending, if there is valid reasons for leaving these threads open, we should do so but if it will only serve to keep a wound bleeding then I suggest we treat it quickly, so to speak. None of us are here to lose friends and the reputation we have built in these castle walls should be protected at all costs.

[Muckeye]

Here Here.....finis...