KOTCT

Worldwide Coins & Bank Notes => U.S. Coins => Topic started by: longnine009 on January 18, 2008, 10:04:51 AM

Title: Fake Slabs
Post by: longnine009 on January 18, 2008, 10:04:51 AM

http://www.ngccoin.com/news/viewarticle.aspx?IDArticle=954

So how does that go again?  Slabs are better than authentication certificates because you can't switch the coins in a slab?

Title: Re: Fake Slabs
Post by: TwoShadows on January 18, 2008, 10:35:23 AM

One must always keep in mind where there is money there is CORRUPTION! I have absolutely NO use for the slabbing industry nor their ability to keep your money for nothing. They do NOT treat all their customers as equals and never will. The grading industry has created a false market, along with false pricing, based on their ability to create the hype to fuel the industry.

Title: Re: Fake Slabs
Post by: longnine009 on January 18, 2008, 11:24:46 AM

I totally agree. But everything about TPGs  rests on  the faith of coin collectors.  I don't know what they can or will do about this.  It's all getting a bit unwieldy isn't it?  Maybe  TPG  land  is  fixing  to get sacked.   ;D 

Title: Re: Fake Slabs
Post by: Sap on January 18, 2008, 11:49:53 AM

Yep, some folks place far too much faith in the slab. Saw someone over on the PCGS forum in this thread (http://forums.collectors.com/messageview.cfm?catid=6&threadid=618860&highlight_key=y&keyword1=from%20China) state that they'd bought a bunch of Chinese silver dollars from China, and all the usual good advice about being very careful about buying dollar-sized Chinese coins and not buying coins from China could be safely ignored, because the coin was slabbed.

Yeah, right. ::)

It's the PCGS forum, so I couldn't say, "Just because it's in a PCGS slab doesn't mean it's genuine". It could just as easily be a very well made fake in a genuine slab or (more likely, in my opinion) a fake slab.

Title: Re: Fake Slabs
Post by: TwoShadows on January 18, 2008, 12:10:11 PM

Sap I had really never given it much thought but the second mouse does get the cheese doesn't he? I did manage, last winter to get both the first and second mouse at the same time, in one mouse trap!!! When it gets exremely cold the little critters find the warmth of my woodshop very inviting so I try to put out a little something for them to help them through the winter, so to speak!  So this one night I scored big! Probably will never happen again and what are the odds of two mice hitting a mouse trap at the same time? None the less it does happen and in that case the 3rd mouse got the cheese!

Title: Re: Fake Slabs
Post by: longnine009 on January 19, 2008, 12:43:53 AM

IMO, the faith that people have in top tier slabs is what forgers are turning to their own advantage. In order for collectors to keep the faith TPGs will have to do all they can to get the fakes off the market. To do that they have to  publish the diagnostics.  The unavoidable pit fall is that those dianostics can also become the instructions forgers will use to fix up the next generation. The discovery of their  fakes may not  make them weaker at all but stonger. 

And the the diligence of TPGs in trying to get them off the market may not make them stronger but weaker since their diligence can't even be noted without the disclosure that more fakes were discovered. It could just become a vicious feedback loop where  each time new discoveries are found out a little bit of faith  is  lost.

I hope they got plan because I think they are in big trouble. And if they think some mullet head in the government is "going to get to the bottom of this" then they are in bigger trouble then I  thought.  TPGs are just a little weenie compared to the entertainment industry. And no one has "gotton to the bottom" of bootlegged DVDs. And they won't either. They'll just get a dog and pony show from china if they even get that.

We sold our soul to china for 29 cent  trinkets in walmart. So how pushy can we get about  counterfeits and bootlegs when we owe them one plus trillion dollars? Just pushy enough to put on our own dog and pony show for "News" that's all.   

Title: Re: Fake Slabs
Post by: Paint Your Wagon on January 19, 2008, 07:11:42 AM

I once had a friend that bought bottles of  MS70 and Ezest no sweat
Who dipped silver and got it slabbed no sweat (you just watch your chronometer)
That same friend would use a gas bunsenburner to tone gold Argentino coins no sweat
( Allthough once in a while they are too well done and melters)
He used to be a coindealer untill his divorce and afterwards sent his coins for slabbing by way of another dealer
(Of course this is all hearsay and not admissable in a court of law nor does it constitute any wrongdoing or admittance of being an accomplice in wrongdoing . So any spam sent in the name of the FBI or the CIA will be sent to the spamdelete map as in the past) ;D
Add another 20 lines of disclaimers here  ;D

I do not have any slabs nor have I ever seen one in hand
I have a pair of electronic weighing scales 0.01 g accurate with calibration weights and a pair of calipers I call nanometers which measure 0.01 mm with a nanoscale
If weight and diameter and thickness match (and since I can grade as good as anybody) I do not worry about the risk I take ;D

Title: Re: Fake Slabs
Post by: longnine009 on January 19, 2008, 11:32:51 AM

I liken TPG's to antibiotics--the more you take the weaker you get.  They may cure what ails you at the moment but they make your immune system lazy. It's been way too easy for people to just buy  slabs and not have to bother with learning authentication or grading.
We've become way too lazy and spoiled.

How ironic is it then that it may turn out to be china that brings U.S collectors to the chinese  proverbial fork in the road: Become self reliant with authentication and grading or risk getting stuck with  fake slabs containing fake coins.

What's their other proverb? "May you live in interesting times"  ?
This has the potential, IMO, to get *real* interesting.

 "It's only when the tide goes out that you learn who's been swimming naked."  Warren Buffett

Title: Re: Fake Slabs
Post by: TwoShadows on January 20, 2008, 12:25:15 PM

I have said all along "If you can't or won't learn to grade a coin why are you in the hobby?" And quite frankly why would I care if my neighbor's new Eagle is a MS-70, because a grading company told him so for another $20+ invested in that coin, and mine is a MS-69? They both cost the same from my dealer and I had equal opportunity to cherry pick his Eagle selection just as my neighbor did and while we both can grade most coins having the ability to tell the difference between MS-65 through MS-70 is almost an imaginary talent for most collectors. If seasoned collectors with years and years of experience are uncomfortable "guessing" at those levels why in the world would you pay someone to do your "guessing" for you"
I picked ALL the coins I have bought throughout my life and have personally graded thousands of coins which have crossed my hands and have been very content with my decisions and I tend to be very conservative with my grading. The only person I have to please with my grading abilities is ME and if I am satisfied that is ALL that really matters isn't it?

Title: Re: Fake Slabs
Post by: scottishmoney on January 20, 2008, 01:40:04 PM

Knowledge is power, true and pure collectors know their coins and know what they like.  They do not depend on someone else to authenticate and grade their coins.  Think about the infamous Micro-O variety dollars that were graded as authentic by NGC and PCGS, turned out later they were period counterfeits.  Found because they all had the same mark on the coin, even though there were several different dates.

Title: Re: Fake Slabs
Post by: longnine009 on January 22, 2008, 12:37:17 AM

Since the days of CoinWorld I've been asking:  If someone can buy the coin and not the slab then what do they need the slab for in the first place?

The answer is usually something like: All the good stuff has been slabbed.

Oh, okay, so  paying for the slab is  just paying shake down money? 

Title: Re: Fake Slabs
Post by: TwoShadows on January 22, 2008, 02:00:29 AM

They must be gooder as the pricing guide says they are worth much much more! A $20 coin can automatically be worth a $100 if a grading company says its gooder!!!

Title: Re: Fake Slabs
Post by: scottishmoney on January 22, 2008, 02:29:42 AM

Quote from: longnine009 on January 22, 2008, 12:37:17 AM

The answer is usually something like: All the good stuff has been slabbed.

Oh, okay, so  paying for the slab is  just paying shake down money? 

This Baby is airtited:

(http://www.geocities.com/scottishmoney/usa/1794.jpg)

Since I have no interests at all in selling her, why would I slab her?  Unfortunately most people trust slabbing companies and that is the only way you can sell a coin like this now, unless you take a huge bite on the asking price.

Title: Re: Fake Slabs
Post by: longnine009 on January 22, 2008, 10:14:11 AM

Oh yeah, selling, I forgot about that one. And there's a lot of truth to it as far as on-line auctions go. But now John J. Ford had some "good stuff," fifty million dollars worth  from a collector who hated slabs or federal coins.

I wonder how long he has to be dead before a  publications  does some kind of a bio about a collector who hated federal coins and slabs but whose collection still managed to set a world's record?

There's an ad in the Dec/Jan issue of TAMS from NGC. They're looking for people to research, attribute, authenticate and grade tokens and medals.

I feel that my stuff is more gooder already.  I feel rich, really I do. :D

Title: Re: Fake Slabs
Post by: TwoShadows on January 22, 2008, 11:01:18 AM

There is NOT a safer place to put your "gooder" coins than an airtite!!!

While I am aware of the slab hype my dealer cringes everytime some one brings in a slabbed coin with the artificial value locked in his mind. He pretty much tells them what the coin is REALLY worth so most of them end up being consignment coins as folks around here won't pay the "slabbing" difference in value. Basically the only thing that comes and goes in a hurry are classic key dates. All others are pretty much dead in the water until they go on sale for normal prices for that particular piece and then most are BUSTED out of the slab immediately upon purchase. Bluntly put my dealer says there is NO WAY we can operate with two different price guide lines so he operates strictly by the GREY SHEET! No hype over plastic in his shop!

Title: Re: Fake Slabs
Post by: longnine009 on January 22, 2008, 12:20:41 PM

Airtites? But TPGs might all start expanding on  tokens and medals. I dare say, if I may, that  I feel so "empowered"  by that thought. Can I use the word "empowered" in an election year if it has nothing to do with a scummy politician? I know it's one of their favorite words. But I think this year it's been supplanted by "relief,"  "change,"  and "Uh-Oh" so it's probably okay.

Seriously, these counterfeit slabs may benefit brick and mortar dealers. If things start to get out of hand I would guess NGC and any others affected  will resort to more sophisticated security devices. They may not be that useful though on the Internet. How do tilt an image to check a  hologram or security thread or whatever? People may come to rely on store and show dealers to weed out the fakes  from stock they are buying.  People may come to rely on themselves by learning grading and authentication and rely on honest dealers for tips etc. It may, ---I HOPE IT DOES--- all make a circle back to the beginning.

Airtites are a good product but I like the note cards that I can use with SAflips.