Some Interesting Thoughts

[CoinCrusader42]

Note:  Probably more of interest to U.S. citizens.

Attributed to Lee Iacocca

'Am I the only guy in this country who's fed up with what's happening? Where the hell is our outrage? We should be screaming bloody murder.
We've got a gang of clueless bozos steering our ship of state right over a cliff, we've got corporate gangsters stealing us blind, and we can't even clean up after a hurricane much less build a hybrid car. But instead of getting mad, everyone sits around and nods their heads when the politicians say, 'Stay the course'
Stay the course? You've got to be kidding. This is America , not the damned 'Titanic'. I'll give you a sound bite: 'Throw all the bums out!'
 
You might think I'm getting senile, that I've gone off my rocker, and maybe I have. But someone has to speak up. I hardly recognize this country anymore.
The most famous business leaders are not the innovators but the guys in handcuffs. While we're fiddling in Iraq , the Middle East is burning and nobody seems to know what to do. And the press is waving 'pom-poms' instead of asking hard questions. That's not the promise of the ' America ' my parents and yours traveled across the ocean for. I've had enough. How about you?
 
I'll go a step further. You can't call yourself a patriot if you're not outraged. This is a fight I'm ready and willing to have. The Biggest 'C' is Crisis!
Leaders are made, not born. Leadership is forged in times of crisis. It's easy to sit there with your feet up on the desk and talk theory. Or send someone else's kids off to war when you've never seen a battlefield yourself. It's another thing to lead when your world comes tumbling down.
 
On September 11, 2001, we needed a strong leader more than any other time in our history. We needed a steady hand to guide us out of the ashes.
A Hell of a Mess

So here's where we stand. We're immersed in a bloody war with no plan for winning and no plan for leaving. We're running the biggest deficit in the history of the country. We're losing the manufacturing edge to Asia , while our once-great companies are getting slaughtered by health care costs. Gas prices are skyrocketing, and nobody in power has a coherent energy policy. Our schools are in trouble. Our borders are like sieves.
The middle class is being squeezed every which way. These are times that cry out for leadership.

But when you look around, you've got to ask: 'Where have all the leaders gone?' Where are the curious, creative communicators? Where are the people of character, courage, conviction, omnipotence, and common sense? I may be a sucker for alliteration, but I think you get the point.

Name me a leader who has a better idea for homeland security than making us take off our shoes in airports and throw away our shampoo?
We've spent billions of dollars building a huge new bureaucracy, and all we know how to do is react to things that have already happened.

Name me one leader who emerged from the crisis of Hurricane Katrina. Congress has yet to spend a single day evaluating the response to the hurricane, or demanding accountability for the decisions that were made in the crucial hours after the storm.

Everyone's hunkering down, fingers crossed, hoping it doesn't happen again. Now, that's just crazy. Storms happen. Deal with it. Make a plan.
Figure out what you're going to do the next time..

Name me an industry leader who is thinking creatively about how we can restore our competitive edge in manufacturing. Who would have believed
that there could ever be a time when 'The Big Three' referred to Japanese car companies? How did this happen, and more important, what are we going to do about it?

Name me a government leader who can articulate a plan for paying down the debt, or solving the energy crisis, or managing the health care problem. The silence is deafening. But these are the crises that are eating away at our country and milking the middle class dry.

I have news for the gang in Congress. We didn't elect you to sit on your asses and do nothing and remain silent while our democracy is being hijacked and our greatness is being replaced with mediocrity. What is everybody so afraid of? That some bonehead on Fox News will call them a name? Give me a break. Why don't you guys show some spine for a change?

Had Enough?

Hey, I'm not trying to be the voice of gloom and doom here. I'm trying to light a fire. I'm speaking out because I have hope, I believe in America
In my lifetime I've had the privilege of living through some of America 's greatest moments. I've also experienced some of our worst crises: the 'Great Depression', 'World War II', the 'Korean War', the 'Kennedy Assassination', the 'Vietnam War', the 1970s oil crisis, and the struggles of recent years culminating with 9/11. If I've learned one thing, it's this: 'You don't get anywhere by standing on the sidelines waiting for somebody else to take action. Whether it's building a better car or building a better future for our children, we all have a role to play. That's the challenge I'm raising in this book. It's a call to 'Action' for people who, like me, believe in Amer ica . It's not too late, but it's getting pretty close. So let's shake off the crap and go to work. Let's tell 'em all we've had 'enough.'
Excerpted from 'Where Have All the Leaders Gone?'.

[Topher]

Amen!

[ElleKitty]

I'll second that!

[AdamL]

Yep.

[TwoShadows]

Sadly it is no longer about, we the people, for the people or of the people. It is about the rich man making every effort to provide for the rich man. Control the mind and control the wallet.
If any of us, in any business, was doing what the gas companies are doing we would be sitting before a Congressional Hearing. But with ALL of our elected Representitives and Senators owning gas futures and stocks, oil futures and stocks, (they are making a killing) what can you expect them to do? And to further add insult to injury........everytime they (our congress men and women) buy that outrageously high priced gasoline with taxpayer money they are just helping themselves AGAIN!
I find it hard to believe the American people, in this day and age, actually believe they will elect a President? The rich boys throw out a dozen rich elected officials and tell us to pick one? They are hand picked and hand groomed to continue the fleecing of the American people and the world. We are nothing more than sheep to the filthy rich. We are no better off than the illegal immigrants who flock here for low wages which again is another way to add bonus bucks into he coffers of the rich and corporate America who refuse to pay an honest days wage. And, then they all have the fortitude to announce billion dollar RECORD profits each year??? This is probably one of the few places in the world where a man or woman can get fired and receive payouts in millions for doing a crappy job.
 Indiana University just fired its basketball coach for illegal recruiting violations and they paid him $750,000 to leave? Something is much more than wrong in this country as old fashioned values and justice have vanished. CEO's are getting millions in stock benefits and cash buy outs when board of directors fire them for bankrupting major corporations? Guess we thank the leeches who are now known as lawyers? And they wonder why the American people are fed up?

[AdamL]

Your right TwoShadows. I personally don't see the point of voting, when really, nothing important ever changes... not for the better anyway.

[Goose]

The U S A is circling the drain.......

[Muckeye]

My God, we have similar problems out here but you blokes sure know how to put it into words.
Let's all get off our arses.
regards,

[AdamL]

Your right TwoShadows. I personally don't see the point of voting, when really, nothing important ever changes... not for the better anyway.

Adam, you may want to look at it this way; 'if your not part of the solution, them you must be part of the problem." It would appear you have a choice to make. (Advice) Never give up a single one of your freedoms if you can help it.

True Olddan. And I'll try not to give up any of my freedoms.
But here's my question. There is all of this talk of how we need to stand up and make a difference, and no advice about how to do so. If anyone has any advice about how a broke 24-year-old can make a difference outside of the life of himself and his family, I'm ALL ears.

[Muckeye]

Adam, it's your attitude that counts.
Even if you only make a difference just one inch outside your own circle. DO IT.
And 'good luck'.
regards,

[EgCollector]

Note:  Probably more of interest to U.S. citizens.

Sadly it is no longer about, we the people, for the people or of the people. It is about the rich man making every effort to provide for the rich man. Control the mind and control the wallet.
.......
I find it hard to believe the American people, in this day and age, actually believe they will elect a President? The rich boys throw out a dozen rich elected officials and tell us to pick one? They are hand picked and hand groomed to continue the fleecing of the American people and the world. We are nothing more than sheep to the filthy rich.

This is the same old story, in USA, in Egypt and in every other place of the world.

Even if you only make a difference just one inch outside your own circle. DO IT.

I completely agree, and if this is the only thing that you can do about it. This is a great step to change things. Just think about it, if every person did a very small step forward.

 

[AdamL]

Thanks Muckeye. Thats the best peice of advice I've heard in a long long time.

[Paint Your Wagon]

I am afraid I have been infected by the french

Après moi le deluge they say

Loosely translated ; after me the flood which probably means I don't care if water wipes away this place after I am dead
I divided responsabilities with my wife
I take care of the bills and the future bills and the money
She takes care of the important things like politics 

[Muckeye]

Hi Adam, may I recommend a book to you?
I bought a copy of it back in 1983, I still have (it's in front of me now), and have reread it several times.
"The One Straw Revolution" by Masanobu Fukuoka, translated into English by an American called Larry Korn.
It changed my life and may inspire you.
You will probably find it at a library, ISBN No.0-87857-220-1. Printed in the states by Rodale Press. 1978. Only 180 pages.
Good luck again.
regards,
muckeye.

[AdamL]

I will look for it at the library. Thank you!

[Dumanyu]

That's a lot to digest, and it all makes sense to me. This country will never get better as long as we are stuck with the same old idiots to choose from for our leadership. They are all bought and paid for by special interests, and the litlle people (you and I) just keep getting screwed over by the system. That's problem number one.

Problem number two is going to get me a lot of grief for saying this, but I live in an area where 60 - 70% of the population is workers unions. Unions protect mediocre people, and the hard working americans who try to excel at work, are advised to slow down their production, because it makes the other union workers look bad. Unions add millions of dollars to the cost of everything in our area, from construction to automobiles. My father worked in the auto manufacturing industry as a worker, I know of which I speak. Some GM plant in some podunk town decide they want more money for less work, and go on strike. This causes thousands of layoffs across the country, affecting their fellow coworkers. Do they care, nope, it's all about them. We used to manufacture steel in this area, and while most of that is gone, we still had the Coke Ovens a bit south from where I live. The Employer, trying to save their jobs, asked for some concessions from the workers, in an attempt to save money. The Union Workers said NOPE, so they closed the Coke Ovens, and they all lost their jobs.

Why are manufacturing jobs leaving america? Because union workers refuse to face the economic realities of the present situation. I have seen small hospitals struggle to get out of the red, and as soon as it happens, the nurses go on strike because they want more money, and don't want to contribute to their healthcare insurance.

The teachers unions around here are the worst of the lot. They claim everything they do is for the children, but then call a strike on an early monday morning when the kids are on their way to school. They were told that they could save 60 teaching jobs if they took a small cut in their over inflated pay. Their answer, no way. How's that for Solidarity. In this area, we spend the most money on education then any other part of the country, and we have the worst results in testing scores for our kids.

I live in the highest taxed county in the nation, and people are leaving this area in droves. Meanwhile the Governor is dropping his 80 grand on call-girls. We've had Hillary for a Senator, and she has done absolutely nothing!!! I wouldn't vote for Hilary, if she was running against Satan himself.

Don't think I am for the rich guy either. The idea that the CEO (or what ever his position) of Exxon recently getting a 50+ million dollar bonus, make me want to blow lunch. Nobody deserves that, and I mean NOBODY!
Not while people are going bankrupt just trying to heat their homes.

One other thing, let raise the minumum wage!!! That'll help, so when small businesses have to raise their prices to make up for the higher wages, what has anyone really gained? If anyone hasn't figured it out, the minumum wage was never meant to be a "living" wage. It was meant as a start up for the young to get into the work environment.

Is it any wonder why big corporations are moving their workforce out of the country? When union worker force their employers to pay a significantly higher wage that make it very hard to compete with foreign manufacturing.
And lets face facts, the only thing we manufacture in America is Lawyers. The rest is assembled from foriegn parts. We don't make anything, and we are giving this country away to place like China, and the like.

So what do we need to do? We need to vote these incumbent, arrogant, and purchased "leaders" out of office. We need to stand up the the same old classless individual who think we can't get along with out them holding court, and legislating what you can do and how you need to do it. If I may paraphrase comedian Lewis Black, "When you go into this next elections voting both, you're going to have a choice between to bowls of crap. The only difference will be the smell.

I would like to apologize if there are Union Workers among the membership (and I am sure there are), I don't mean for this to be taken prsonally. Living in this area, I could tell you story upon story about how these situations just keep on happening.

[Humpybong]

Excellent.....many of us think the same way here in OZ.

Great post Dumanyu

[CoinCrusader42]

Dumanyu,

A very good post!!

I enjoyed it, and certainly agree with you on most everything.

There was certainly a time for the labor unions -- back in the 1930's when workers were paid barely enough to keep themselves and their families alive.  Today, one could argue, unions do more harm than good.

Look at Major League Baseball.  At one point, the players had few, if any, rights, and were treated like property.  Now, we have 20-something millionaires, simply because they were born with physical talent.  The face of baseball, and other sports, have changed and I seldom will pay the inflated ticket prices just to get into a stadium and help make kids and executives into millionaires.

The only thing I would take exception to in Dumanyu's post is "over inflated" wages for teachers.  Maybe in some places.  Not here.  I taught for 35 years, and averaged probably about $20,000 a year.  Belonging to the NEA was optional, and no union ever helped us get our little pittance of a raise every year.

Again, your post was excellent, and I really enjoyed it.

Some members may get tired of my mentioning it, but I just have to plug the Lou Dobbs Tonight show.  It's on CNN weekdays, starting at 7 p.m. EST.  I think I have listened to about every commentator there is -- left wing and right-wing, and none come close to Lou for common sense and logic.  If you've never listened to him, give his program a try.  He is so refreshing, and really tells it like it is.

 

[scottishmoney]

Teacher Unions have managed to accomplish much in the way of nil for teachers themselves, other than a thinner wallet from Union dues.  Before taking the leap to Admin, my wife was a teacher for 5 years, she paid her union dues of $800 a year, that money told her she worked too long, she did not take enough vacation, looked out for students interests a bit too much etc.  Teacher unions sure are NOT looking out for the best interests of students, or education in general.

Unions had their time and place, that was 70+ years ago, the Flint sit down strikes etc. but now they are redundant and only counterproductive.  They have basically finished off GM, Delphi, Ford etc.  And here I am in a GM factory town, with very exorbitantly high unemployment, high foreclosures, steeply declining house values, but the ones still working still tout their freaking union.  Go figure.

[Muckeye]

Touche, Fred.
Right on the nail head, glad you missed your thumb.
regards,

[TwoShadows]

I was in a Union for the bulk of 28 years. They have literally screwed the 400 plus employees right out of work and they are now down to less than 200. They let me down when I needed them most and I and my family have suffered for the last two and a half years for it. The Unions are nothing more than collection agencies for rich guys in Washington who claim to be protecting our jobs. They are protecting their own jobs and rich life style, nothing more and nothng less. I don't know about your unions but most of ours are ran by a bunch of beer drinking rednecks who don't have anything else going on in their lives so the union gives them a feeling of power and control. Ask 25,000 GM employees what their union did for them when asked to help out with health care. No way the union says, not under this contract so 25,000 lost their jobs. Way to go Unions!!! What a crock!
While I agree with you 100% there is one little thing you failed to mention, at least for our area, and thats the fact that illegal immigrants (50,000 to 80,000 in Indiana alone) have driven factory wages downward and it continues. We can spend billions on a war but can't protect our own borders and then the millions of criminals, who crossed the border illegally, hold rally's waving the Mexican flag demainding their rights? Made a lot of good American's blood boil and its only going to get worse until a major eruption takes place. The rich guy and corporate America is making tons of money off of these people. And of course the illegals send the bulk of their money back to Mexico to stimulate their economy---NOT OURS! They don't want to speak English because they DON'T want to be American citizens. Just freeloaders on the system when need be. 
Want to see some more good from the illegals? Read the arrest columns in any newspaper. Also have a look at the homicide stats to see who is driving crime here now!
I might add, just recently, I told a fellow, if my only choice for President was between Hillary or Hitler I would take Hitler as at least I would know what I was getting!!! I guess we can throw Satan in as an independant so there would be another choice? Hate to say it but that woman, who claims to have White House experience, scares the living daylights out of me! Guess most Americans have forgotten that just a few weeks after Bill got elected he was told to get her OUT of the meetings and to basically hush her up. She was the First Lady, no more, no less! She thought she was in charge back then!!! I find it utterly amazing anyone would give one damned dime to any of these filthy rich people for an election or stand for hours to cheer them on. Way too many fools left in the world? Sure wish they would broadcast the "Clinton Chronicles" on TV but no one has the guts to do it!
Now if we want to do it right we would have to vote OUT every incumbent for the next 3 elections to get them all. My how I wish it would happen and we could put the average working class man into office who KNOWS how to make ends meet and how to balance a budget. Government is out of control.
We have programs and offices right now that were set up from the depression era that are still functioning but serve absolutely no purpose.
Way too many people around who like to be herded like sheep? Guess its easier than thinking for yourself or standing on your own two feet? I find this whole election issue disgusting. Have you heard any candidate actually speak about anything yet? Well I had better quit now that I got the old blood boiling!

Oh, the educational system in this country is a farce. The first thing you MUST do, at least in Indiana, is get rid of "tenure" to force the teachers to start doing their job. Sure would be nice if all WE had to do was work for seven years and then you CAN'T be terminated? Then we need to tell the lawyers to butt out when little Johnny gets his butt busted for disrupting classes or start fining parents who won't discipline the little brat themselves. (When Mommy and Daddy start paying fines before a judge their little angel is going to get the crap beat out of him at home) Good old fashioned discipline and DRESS codes would be my first rule of thumb and after that it would be strict rules and regulations for EVERYONE involved. The bulk of our money does NOT go for a childs education it goes for fancy new equipment, atheletic facilities, new buildings and administrators who are overpaid. Granted there are some great teachers out there who go above and beyond for our children but for everyone you find there will be a half a dozen freeloaders who just don't get it!

[scottishmoney]

I might add, just recently, I told a fellow, if my only choice for President was between Hillary or Hitler I would take Hitler as at least I would know what I was getting!!! I guess we can throw Satan in as an independant so there would be another choice? Hate to say it but that woman, who claims to have White House experience, scares the living daylights out of me! Guess most Americans have forgotten that just a few weeks after Bill got elected he was told to get her OUT of the meetings and to basically hush her up. She was the First Lady, no more, no less! She thought she was in charge back then!!!

Just like back in 1992-3, but switch Bill for Hillary, now they are trying to gaggle him, he cannot shut his freaking mouth.  And be careful wishing for a dictator, one lurks in the wings, waiting for America to elect him or her, and watch out.  People are asking for change, they will get it all right.

My daughters school has dress codes, and the students follow them or they are suspended.  Problem has come to be that dress codes for the educators was another and not enforced thing until the leadership in the school changed, and it is still something of an issue with a couple of the educators.  At least the hippie was made to quit.

[TwoShadows]

Scottishmoney my whole point is the mere fact the American people are fed up with the current status quo. I have much less concern about our educational system then I do illegal immigration. I am not against immigration but want it LEGAL and controlled. I want governement to revamp it's itself, kill off the pork barrelling, get rid of lobbyist, do away with programs that virtually serve no one and bury the IRS and its money sucking black hole. The current phrase I would have to use with our government is not "We the People," but "We Over the People" which pretty much eliminates the working class guy.

[CoinCrusader42]

I just have to say that Twoshadows is absolutely correct in every word he wrote above.

I've been interested in our history since I was about 15, which is 50 years ago, and I have never been so concerned about our country, and the country our kids and grandkids will enherit.

 

[AdamL]

My dad says that him and mom are moving to Canada if Hillary becomes president. But he doesn't even like the winters here in Missouri, so I've advised him to move to Australia

I just wanted to make one point. Dumanyu, good post. But, you mention that we have to vote these so-called leaders out of office. I agree. But I'm very concerned that I might not ever see it happen in my lifetime. All the democrats and republicans are on the payroll of the incredibly wealthy, but they are presented as our only two options. People beleive that if they vore for an independent candidate they are throwing their vote away. And that is a self-fulfilling prophecy that has kept this country stuck in a rut fow a while now.

[longnine009]

"He felt safe in the oak tree's presence; it was a thing that
nothing could change or threaten;  it was his greatest symbol of
strength.
  One night, lightning struck the oak tree. Eddie saw it the next
morning. It lay broken in half, and he looked into its trunk as
into the mouth of a black tunnel.  The trunk was only an empty shell;
its heart had rotted away long ago; there was nothing inside--just a
thin gray dust that was being dispersed by the whim of the faintest
 wind.  The living power had gone, and the shape it left had not
been able to stand without it."

Atlas Shrugged--Ayn Rand

[Topher]

My dad says that him and mom are moving to Canada if Hillary becomes president. But he doesn't even like the winters here in Missouri, so I've advised him to move to Australia

Not that there's anything wrong with Australia, but Canada IS closer. 

As an American who has lived in all three places, I must admit that there is a lot of room for improvement in the US.  I think universal health care is a must, but I don't see that happening in the US in my lifetime.  Granted, our wait times aren't exactly short, but they are working on that.  It's just one of the problems you face when everyone has access to health care, and not just the wealthy.  It's a problem I'm willing to put up with.  Sometimes, I miss the US, but when I'm sitting in the doctor's office, I remember that this is one of the two reasons we moved here.

[Dumanyu]

Good answers, all!! Don't get me started on illegal immigration (too late, I'm started!!). I saw this program on TV last night and some liberal dork was extolling how horrible it was for the family from Mexico, had their parents deported, but their kids elected to stay, because they were born in America and are citizens. What a tragedy... Yeah, and if the parents weren't here illegally it wouldn't have happened. You break the law, you should be punished, but everyone is a victim, and nobody is reponsible for their own actions.

There is a term for this type of thinking...

It's called NIGHTSOIL FROM A WELL FED MALE OXEN!!!

[Dumanyu]

My dad says that him and mom are moving to Canada if Hillary becomes president. But he doesn't even like the winters here in Missouri, so I've advised him to move to Australia

Not that there's anything wrong with Australia, but Canada IS closer. 

As an American who has lived in all three places, I must admit that there is a lot of room for improvement in the US.  I think universal health care is a must, but I don't see that happening in the US in my lifetime.  Granted, our wait times aren't exactly short, but they are working on that.  It's just one of the problems you face when everyone has access to health care, and not just the wealthy.  It's a problem I'm willing to put up with.  Sometimes, I miss the US, but when I'm sitting in the doctor's office, I remember that this is one of the two reasons we moved here.

Topher,
   On this I must disagree!!! I am in medical imaging, and being close to the border we service patients from Canada. Universal (i.e. Government Run) would be a freaking disaster.

   Consider this as one of many horror stories from patients I have personally cared for. A young woman has an injury to her elbow. She has her arm in a cast for 2 weeks before she sees her doctor. She needs an MRI to fully evaluate her elbow. It takes 3 weeks for her MRI. Next she needs to see a specialist in Canada. How long does this take? 6 weeks. The end result was she had a fracture (break), which required the specialist to have to re-break the bones and reset, then put her back in a cast for 8 weeks.

End result 20 weeks recovery time! I won't bore you all with the details of the number of Brain Tumors I have found on Canadian patients who may have had a better chance of survival if they could have been treated (in some cases 6 months) sooner.

No person is turned away from a hospital in need of medical treatment, regardless of their ability to pay... that's law.

[scottishmoney]

Scottishmoney my whole point is the mere fact the American people are fed up with the current status quo. I have much less concern about our educational system then I do illegal immigration. I am not against immigration but want it LEGAL and controlled. I want governement to revamp it's itself, kill off the pork barrelling, get rid of lobbyist, do away with programs that virtually serve no one and bury the IRS and its money sucking black hole. The current phrase I would have to use with our government is not "We the People," but "We Over the People" which pretty much eliminates the working class guy.

I guess I could argue that everybody that came to America after 1586 was an illegal immigrant.  Native Americans really were not afforded any such say in matters, in fact if they weren't pushed out west forcibly, they were killed or starved to death.

I think illegal immigration is little more than a smoke screen created by the media, with the tacit support of people in government to steer our attentions away from really important matters like the USA trade deficit, the nearly 4.000 soldiers killed in Iraq, the economy going to hell in a handbasket, and a possible Depression on the way.  Before illegal immigration it was abortion rights, then gay rights and gays in the military.  I appreciate that for the people directly affected by such matters those are important, but in my estimation they do not afford precedence over the economy, trade deficits etc.

[scottishmoney]

Topher, my wife's family is from Canada, and they come here for all medical things that require any amount of planning etc.  And pay pay pay through the nose, so they can get treated before they expire from waiting.

[Dumanyu]

Scottishmoney my whole point is the mere fact the American people are fed up with the current status quo. I have much less concern about our educational system then I do illegal immigration. I am not against immigration but want it LEGAL and controlled. I want governement to revamp it's itself, kill off the pork barrelling, get rid of lobbyist, do away with programs that virtually serve no one and bury the IRS and its money sucking black hole. The current phrase I would have to use with our government is not "We the People," but "We Over the People" which pretty much eliminates the working class guy.

I guess I could argue that everybody that came to America after 1586 was an illegal immigrant.  Native Americans really were not afforded any such say in matters, in fact if they weren't pushed out west forcibly, they were killed or starved to death.

I think illegal immigration is little more than a smoke screen created by the media, with the tacit support of people in government to steer our attentions away from really important matters like the USA trade deficit, the nearly 4.000 soldiers killed in Iraq, the economy going to hell in a handbasket, and a possible Depression on the way.  Before illegal immigration it was abortion rights, then gay rights and gays in the military.  I appreciate that for the people directly affected by such matters those are important, but in my estimation they do not afford precedence over the economy, trade deficits etc.

Scott,
    I wish I could agree with that. But as a citizen, living in New York State which has such a prolific Welfare / Medicaid program, that these poor people are actually bussed in from other states, so as not to be a financial burden to the state of which they originated. The facts are that the poor people are held down by the liberals in this country, and given "hand-outs" so they will vote for the same liberals who supposedly champion their plight.

[Topher]

While I don't disagree with the above statements, I'll show you the other side of the coin:

When I was 23, I was kicked off of my parents' health plan.  Not because I was unhealthy, in fact, I hadn't even seen a doctor in a couple of years.  Not because I was no longer a student, in fact, I was still a full-time student.  (I earned two bachelor's degrees, so it took me 5.5 years).  I was kicked off, merely because I was 23.  And healthy.  I began looking for other health insurance and even had one company turn me down because I wasn't currently insured.  What's the point of shopping for insurance if I already have it?!?!?  I finally opted to go without, as there was no way I could have afforded it as a full-time student.  Besides, the university would take care of many things anyway, I just hoped nothing major happened to me.

When I got married (25 years old), I looked into a health plan through my company at the time.  With their plan, it would cost me $248 PER PERSON, PER MONTH!  Needless to say, I just didn't get sick, and took my chances.  I wasn't earning enough to be able to afford health care and rent, so I chose rent.

In Canada, the worst I have encountered was an 8-hour wait in the emergency room for my son when he had been vomiting all day.  Once we got a bed, he got an IV and we were home again in less than 8 more hours.  Not the greatest wait, but this is my worst case.  Me?  I saw a doctor for my recurring ear infections, she surmised it was due to my life-long allergies.  I had a specialist appointment for the following Monday.  I'm already in my second month of allergy injections and I saw the first doctor (NOT the specialist) on January 10th of this year.  That includes a 5-week wait for the special cocktail of allergens for my shots.

While I don't disagree that health care can be worse here in Canada, for the everyday thing, it has been FAR better for me, and while I'm not yet middle-class, I never have to worry about whether or not I will be able to afford the treatment.  I should never have to decide if I need treatment based on what it may or may not cost me.  That's my experience so far, and I'm happy with my choice.  Since the US won't let my wife immigrate, I don't have the option of going back anyway.  They'll let all the illegal immigrants in, but the ones with PhD's from Ivy league schools, we'll keep out.  Go figure!

[Dumanyu]

Here's an interesting link about government controlled healthcare.

It's typical of some of the patients I have had to deal with in my facilities...

http://freemarketcure.com/brainsurgery.php

[Muckeye]

 :)There's plenty of room down here.
     Get out while you can, we are short of people! (workers)
         At least you speak the language.
regards,

[TwoShadows]

If I could ONLY talk my wife into moving we would be there in a hurry! I figure when all hell finally breaks loose Australia will be the last remaining power left in the world and probably the safest place in the world on top of that. But......I have a small problem with your current stance on gun control being an outdoorsman and all? I know you fellows down there have plenty of room for target shooting and I assume there are those who still get to do some hunting for food?

[scottishmoney]

Topher, I can commiserate with not having had health insurance, I went without it for a a couple of years in the 1990's before I got married and got into my wife's insurance.  I dreaded getting seriously ill, I did have an ear infection once, had to go in at my expense, and on no wages, I had to shell out something like $250 for a simple doctor visit, then another $100 or so for medicine.

One of the paradoxes in comparing Canada and the USA for health, is that Canadians have usually paid much less for prescription medications, so much so, that whole tour buses still traipse over the border daily with people taking their American prescriptions to Canadian pharmacies to fill.  That is the pharmaceutical companies fault, they overcharge Americans, while usually giving the rest of the world a break.

But for lesser illnesses Canadian health care has been deficient.  I know my wife's cousins have come over here for health care issues, and had to pay out of pocket for them, as they would have had to wait egregious amounts of time to be treated there. 

[scottishmoney]

If I could ONLY talk my wife into moving we would be there in a hurry! I figure when all hell finally breaks loose Australia will be the last remaining power left in the world and probably the safest place in the world on top of that. But......I have a small problem with your current stance on gun control being an outdoorsman and all? I know you fellows down there have plenty of room for target shooting and I assume there are those who still get to do some hunting for food?

I haven't managed to talk my wife into living anywhere I wanted to go, France, Ukraine, or Canada.  But maybe Oz might be a bit more civilized for her.

[TwoShadows]

If this thread of posts has done anything it has proven a vast majority of Americans are MORE than concerned about a lot of things currently effecting our society. It is good to read opinions that we, in our own anger, tend to overlook. To all of you who have replied in one way or another I THANK YOU! Now I have a whole new perspective on what to be mad as h__l about! The list grows longer!!!

[scottishmoney]

I think what is fascinating is the paradox of countries such as Bulgaria, Ukraine, Romania etc. becoming so much freer, all the while Americans are slowly eroding and losing their individual liberties.  I theorize that you really do not appreciate and desire to live freely and practice freedom unless you have not had it.

[Paint Your Wagon]

I think freedom is relative
I think I remember reading somewhere that Freedom is another name for Nothing Else to lose .

Zimbabwe freed itself and now they are starving and gold is like 40 million a kilo or by now any figure you can think of and the free people there probably are now terorised by anybody with power

On Health care and Freedom
About everybody is coming to Belgium
The Dutch for fast and relatively cheap Docters here
The English I seem to remember for artificial insemination and in vitro etc
Everybody for organ transplants
And now I heard on the TV a French woman with cancer growing out of her nose and mouth and brain in terrible pain nothing can allivate anymore and she petitioned the French court to die and was denied . In Belgium a selfsigned lettre with two countersignatures by two docters allows you to terminate your unlivable life .This woman declared on TV she wants to come and die in Belgium .

[scottishmoney]

And now I heard on the TV a French woman with cancer growing out of her nose and mouth and brain in terrible pain nothing can allivate anymore and she petitioned the French court to die and was denied . In Belgium a selfsigned lettre with two countersignatures by two docters allows you to terminate your unlivable life .This woman declared on TV she wants to come and die in Belgium .

Only in Oregon state in the USA can a person decide to die medically, otherwise they have to keep you alive unless you have written instructions.

[ElleKitty]

Personally, I think it's just another swing in the eternal pendulum of life. 

People who have freedom learn to take it for granted, and eventually trade it away so that someone else does all the work for them.  (Government interference, centralized health care, socialism, etc.)

People who have complete government control (Socialism, Totalitarianism, Despotism, Supreme Monarchy, Dictatorship) will fight for freedoms and eventually gain them.

I'm beginning to think it's all a matter of the Grass is Greener...


And the ones educated enough to realise that everything is always changing are the ones who make changes, and suffer the most for them. :-/

[Paint Your Wagon]

The best boss I ever had (an American) once said that the best form of government was a benign dictatorship
I now think he might be right
I should have asked his definition of benign 

[scottishmoney]

But in some cases, say Russia, they have never been free, and really do not understand the concept of freedom in the way we do.  I say this having travelled in Russia and Ukraine.  Ukraine is different, because of nationalism on the part of the Ukrainian speakers, and more than a bit of anti-Russian sentiment, they embrace western Europe, and the concept of freedom, even if the institutionalizing of it there is a bit rough at times - Tymoshenko and Yuschenko, and Yanukovych by example.

It is not to say there are not people in Russia that want freedom, they are just the minority, and only through time and increased media and contact with western ideas will more people there understand the concept of freedom of thought, civil liberties etc.

China is going to be a hotbed at some point, lots of people there have been to the USA and picked up lots of ideas and brought them home, it is only a matter of time before they start questioning the powers that be.  I thought it was interesting to find anti-communist party books in a bookstore in Guangzhou when I was there.

[longnine009]

"...She's got a pad down on Thirty-Fourth and Vine
 Sellin' little bottles of Love Potion Number Nine..."   

The Clovers

Oh that's great. I posted it in the wrong thread

[Dumanyu]

But in some cases, say Russia, they have never been free, and really do not understand the concept of freedom in the way we do.  I say this having travelled in Russia and Ukraine.  Ukraine is different, because of nationalism on the part of the Ukrainian speakers, and more than a bit of anti-Russian sentiment, they embrace western Europe, and the concept of freedom, even if the institutionalizing of it there is a bit rough at times - Tymoshenko and Yuschenko, and Yanukovych by example.

It is not to say there are not people in Russia that want freedom, they are just the minority, and only through time and increased media and contact with western ideas will more people there understand the concept of freedom of thought, civil liberties etc.

China is going to be a hotbed at some point, lots of people there have been to the USA and picked up lots of ideas and brought them home, it is only a matter of time before they start questioning the powers that be.  I thought it was interesting to find anti-communist party books in a bookstore in Guangzhou when I was there.

Interesting comments. I have never been to Europe, but have read alot of history. I think Russian people, fore example, have lived their whole lives with some form of governmental control, that the idea of freedom is a very alien concepts, and difficult to except. JMHO

[Dumanyu]

The best boss I ever had (an American) once said that the best form of government was a benign dictatorship
I now think he might be right
I should have asked his definition of benign 

I'm not sure what his might have been, but for myself it would have to be the current state of such people as Milosevic, Hussein, Pinochet and Niyazov.  At last they are really benign.

Especially as they "live" in a decaying state.

[Paint Your Wagon]

I am not going to defend the belgians that used to exploit the belgian congo but truths is that after they left the mines stopped mining and the railroad stopped running and the new zaire came begging to us and anybody with money for loans
Well we sent them 20 000 kilo of brand new banknotes daily in the last days of was it Mobutu ? ( Their own paper of course and the ink paid for)
All this was before my time but I have been told stories of a brand new bike and the chain rain off and they threw away the entire bike since the notion of repairing something was beyond them
One of my most exploiting bosses worked in the congo and they had 12 aircompressors so they could keep 4 on line all the time 

[scottishmoney]

The Belgian Congo is an extreme example of a mismanaged colony, but you would struggle to find any colony in Africa  that succeeded after independence.  Look at Rhodesia, now Zimbabwe.  Frankly they were better off when they were under British, then white rule.  Now they are ruled by an 84 year old despot that has completely destroyed the economy and made Zimbabwe a basket case nation.

Many of the former French colonial countries now have to depend on foreign aid, or French troops to keep things marginally civil.  The CFA franc is propped up by the euro.

There are few bright spots in Africa, namely Botswana and Namibia, where at least democracy has managed to survive.

[Paint Your Wagon]

Since I thrust Jim Sinclair I have a chunk of my pension in Tanzania

On the other hand now that gold is shooting up the South Africans are running out of electricity and that is a disaster for goldmines and the economy in general
They reported the state owned electricity company is run by politically correct incompetents I seem to remember

[dharmaeye]

Russia only seems to get it act together for very short periods. Seems to take a war (in their country) and/ or a ruthless dictator.
Africa seems in the same boat. Don't just think gold, silver, remember palladium and platinum are mined mostly in Russia and South Africa and are critical catalysts in energy production from oil to hydrogen.

[Paint Your Wagon]

Russia only seems to get it act together for very short periods. Seems to take a war (in their country) and/ or a ruthless dictator.
Africa seems in the same boat. Don't just think gold, silver, remember palladium and platinum are mined mostly in Russia and South Africa and are critical catalysts in energy production from oil to hydrogen.

Well I agree with whomever said that if you do not have the metal in your bankvault you do not have the metal at all
and palladium has a taw and no market in Belgium and Platinum is not widely traded by exchange agents that are widely geared to gold
Also I fear one of these days a wizz kid is going to find a nanobot solution instead of catalysts and do'nt forget BMW allready has 12 cars
on Hydrogen they use for dignitaries visiting Germany but they are only 5-7 years away from serie production I estimate

[TwoShadows]

We would have alternative cars over here RIGHT NOW if the filthy rich, gas and oil industries, with the backing of Ford, GM and Dodge, would quit using thier money and threats against anyone who comes up with an alternative idea.
Lets face the facts. NO ONE is going to allow a vehicle on the market that does not require we fork over some of our hard earned money every 200 to 300 miles regardless of what it might run on. The whole thing is a "Greed" gimmick and supporting the money grubbers is getting tiring. I would like to see the world go to pedal power and let them all go under. Oh wait, a few years back a group developed such a small two seater car that was geared to run, without much effort by two people, at a consistant 45 mph. It had electric lights, storage space and was basically maintenance free. All investors were THREATENED right out of the program by the big 3 automotive industry? Imagine that. Popular Mechanics did a huge story on the program and why it failed. Most Americans could have used the exercise!!!

And I won't even mention the fact that 125 to 150 miles per gallon carbueration systems have been around since the late 1960's and early 1970's. The big 3 bought the rights and patents and threw them in the closet. And, NO, it would not be beneficial for any one auto manufacturer to come out with such a huge developement as they all know within a matter of hours ALL the other manufacturers would have the same technology simply by buying one of their automobiles. And it is very important for all involved to continue to protect and pad each others wallet in any way that they can. If we get a major break through in transportation and transportation costs it will come from another nation other than the U.S.
The same goes for medical expenses. In the U.S. they want to TREAT the illness. In other countries they want to CURE the illness. There is MUCH more money in treating and requiring you to constantly come back! If they found a cure for a major disease it will never be announced or put on the market. NO money in curing!!! It would be killing off huge government research money and grants, killing off potential jobs and driving off needed customers and clients!!!
Sad, but true!

[Paint Your Wagon]

Germany does not have any oil and they can tax the production of Hydrogen to death as a very dangerous product or such
Also the Japanese would not be able to sell any cars in Germany any more untill those too ran on Hydrogen etc
The electric car seems a flop since the batteries did not advance in technology for 30 years
I still have to buy a new battery every 3 years like I did in 1970
And like I said I pay now about 7 dollars a gallon in taxes and a bit of fuel which is half the price of a good white Rhine wine 

[scottishmoney]

Russia only seems to get it act together for very short periods. Seems to take a war (in their country) and/ or a ruthless dictator.

From a global perspective nowadays, I believe your assertion would more aptly describe Great Russia's North American nemesis, whose dictator proclaimed Vladimir Putin to be "A Great Man and Friend".  And quite frankly the USA has engaged in far far more militaristic expressions in the world scene than Russia could ever in her wildest dreams aspire too.  I could rattle off a short list, Korea, Vietnam, Lebanon(twice), Grenada, Cuba, Nicaragua, El Salvador, Somalia, Iraq, Sudan, Libya, Cambodia.  And where is Bin Laden hiding these days?

[TwoShadows]

 We continue to pump millions into a worthless United Nations and what for? Expensive chunk of real estate in NY for vacationing politicians, from around the world, and their staff. When push comes to shove its the same old crap and we get to pay for it! I say move it to Switzerland so they can all have a nice mountain view and fresh air. After we get that done we can then cancel all foreign aid and find out within days who are real friends and allies are. When the bribe money dries up the flies will go looking for a fresh patty to suck the life out of! Whats left will be our true friends!

[scottishmoney]

Actually these days the USA is not popular with the UN, the USA has not paid dues in years, billions of dollars, and as a percentage of GDP is now one of the lowest donor percentages of foreign aid.  Sweden is the highest, followed by other W. European nations and Japan.

All the UN accomplishes for NYC is millions of dollars worth of unpaid parking tickets wracked up by UN staff.

[longnine009]

China wants to be Master of the Universe. Move the UN over there and lease out the building to businesses that can produce something other than political face exhaust and spies.

[scottishmoney]

China wants to be Master of the Universe. Move the UN over there and lease out the building to businesses that can produce something other than political face exhaust and spies.

From a global perspective China is a good guy, take Africa for instance where Chinese firms are investing billions of dollars in infrastructure in countries otherwise ignored.  They are proactive in negotiating raw material supply contracts for years down the road that result in jobs and money flowing into countries that otherwise would be broke.  Similarly China is competing in Latin America. 

But in counterbalance, the global perspective of the USA is a country led by an arrogant cowboy that falsifies justification for starting a war that the world outside of the USA knows has resulted in the deaths of some 600.000 Iraqis, and now recently 4.000 Americans.

The world must have counterbalancing powers, partners in competition, that way the whole world benefits. 

[longnine009]

China wants to be Master of the Universe. Move the UN over there and lease out the building to businesses that can produce something other Ithan political face exhaust and spies.

From a global perspective China is a good guy, take Africa for instance where Chinese firms are investing billions of dollars in infrastructure in countries otherwise ignored.  They are proactive in negotiating raw material supply contracts for years down the road that result in jobs and money flowing into countries that otherwise would be broke.  Similarly China is competing in Latin America. 

But in counterbalance, the global perspective of the USA is a country led by an arrogant cowboy that falsifies justification for starting a war that the world outside of the USA knows has resulted in the deaths of some 600.000 Iraqis, and now recently 4.000 Americans.

The world must have counterbalancing powers, partners in competition, that way the whole world benefits. 

China is using the exact same play book that we used to usurp Great Britain's  economy at the turn of the last century. Right down to child labor in sweat factories just as we did in NYC at the turn of the 1900's. How is it that they are good and we are bad when they are using our  methods?

http://www.amnestyusa.org/document.php?lang=e&id=ENGUSA20070301001

I don't agree with bush's forever war on the boogie man either and Vietnam appears to have been an even bigger fiasico that we obviously didn't learn anything from. The attack on the USS Maddox and USS Turner Joy in the Gulf of Tonkin is also believed by some to have been a staged event. But as for Iraq "that too will pass"  as the  Chineese like to say.   And even bush won't be able screw things up more or cause more deaths than Mao  and Cho En-lai.

 I agree that the world does see China as a good guy including our traitorous political leaders here in the U.S  But maybe the world should look out the window when it comes to China. I'm sure there's a Dali lama Monk somewhere that would be happy to open it for them. 

Or maybe just throw a rock through it. 

[scottishmoney]

I am not claiming China really is the good guy, or that the USA is the bad guy, but look at it from a global media perspective and you will see why people have the opinions they do.  The world media have played up the abuses at Guantanamo Bay and Abu Ghraib to the hilt, all the while ignoring the the fact that China has one of the highest rates of execution in the world. 

I am glad some people think the Iraqi excursion has been a success, because whatever the result and outcome in Iraq, be it good or otherwise, it will have a long and negative effect on the USA with the expenditures that were used, all the whilst ignoring social programmes, veterans etc. in the USA.

Gees, even lately McCain is distancing his views from those of GWB.  McCain is in favour of supporting Iraq, but notice this week he has stated that he is not going to extend the "us vs. the rest of the world" mentality of the current administration.  I do not forget that McCain also languished in a N. Vietnamese prison and would personally know what it is like to be serve his country honourably and suffer for it. 

That is by itself one area that I believe John McCain, whilst I do not agree with many of his views etc., but he is more qualified as a result of his having served in the military, which I believe should be a prerequisite of running for any high office within the USA.

[TwoShadows]

I will agree with you on this one Scottishmoney. At least McCain knows the difference between gun fire and childrens voices and a band playing. Clinton sure doesn't and it is apparent she does not know the difference between running and walking? Especially in Bosnia!!!    
Also I can't help but wonder WHY she stayed with her nationally embarassed husband all these years? Perhaps it was for MONEY, POWER and PUBLICITY??? The whole marraige is nothing more than an act and if the woman doesn't have the guts to do what is right in her personal affairs why in the world would anyone want her handling ours?

[scottishmoney]

The comedian Sinbad was saying that when he flew into Bosnia with Hillary that their biggest worry was what they were going to have for lunch.

[scottishmoney]

The USA cannot even print it's own passports these days, they are done in Thailand! :

Look what happened to American passports

[longnine009]

Has anyone considered how ironic it is that Bill Clinton as the spouse of a president, should Hillary get in, may be the only thing that stands between us and a 99 Luftballoons episode?   Let us hope he's not too busy with an intern on that day.


http://www.seeklyrics.com/lyrics/Nena/99-Red-Balloons.html

[TwoShadows]

Ole Bill did prove one point! Everyone does not take the Presidency real seriously!!!    

[TKO]

Actually these days the USA is not popular with the UN, the USA has not paid dues in years, billions of dollars, and as a percentage of GDP is now one of the lowest donor percentages of foreign aid.  Sweden is the highest, followed by other W. European nations and Japan.

All the UN accomplishes for NYC is millions of dollars worth of unpaid parking tickets wracked up by UN staff.

I guess we can chock this up as doing something right for a change. When I drove trucks, you would not believe the amount of billboards across the country that said "Get US out of the United Nations". The US was always in red,white and blue stripes.

[Triggersmob]

If Hillary does get in, what will you call Bill. The spouse of the President has always been the First Lady., but what if it's a man?

[Humpybong]

In Bill's case.....he will have the First Lady then the Second Lady.....the Third Lady...and as many as you can send him.


     

[scottishmoney]

I think he is client #1 with Emperors Club VIP, notice how everything kind of hushed suddenly.

[longnine009]

If Hillary does get in, what will you call Bill. The spouse of the President has always been the First Lady., but what if it's a man?

They would call him  The Kang.
 
"The record shows, I took the blows, and did it myyyyyy way..."
Elvis

[Paint Your Wagon]

If you want to be politically correct you will have to call HIM the first person and after that NO more first Ladies either only first persons 

[scottishmoney]

He will still be the "Philander in Chief"

[TKO]

I don't think that first person is actually appropriate here. Taking into consideration who these people are and how they are, I would unfortunately have to call him the better half.

[scottishmoney]

For all of his notable personal failings, Bill Clinton otherwise will be reflected upon as having served a successful tenure in office.  I saw a bumper sticker the other day that summed up his presidency:

"At least when Clinton lied,
Nobody had died"

[CoinCrusader42]

I was a lot less concerned about the country during Clinton's tenure than I have been during the last seven years.

It's amazing how he was able to deal with his personal problems while still effectively head the Government.

 

[scottishmoney]

I think I would rather have a president lying about his sex life than one that lies about foreign policy.  There really is a difference.  If we had a perfect world we would have an honest president, but that is not possible apparently.

[Muckeye]

If Hillary does get in, what will you call Bill. The spouse of the President has always been the First Lady., but what if it's a man?

They would call him  The Kang.
 
"The record shows, I took the blows, and did it myyyyyy way..."
Elvis

  .
regards,